<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi Philippe,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">"She" doesn't solve either of the problems I outlined in my original statement, however. It still excludes people who aren't of a particular gender and it's still inaccurate in places where it implies a particular value for borrowers.sex.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">I don't mean to make more work for anyone, cause trouble, or to make things more confusing. There are places where Chris' suggestion makes sense; we can avoid pronouns altogether, if possible. But I'm not sure that works in every comment. I just see so little harm in correcting the existing instances of gendered language and establishing a guideline for future writing. Most of this work has already been done.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">When you look at the current terminology <a href="https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Terminology">guidelines</a>, some choices have already been based upon locality. Thus the use of "patrons" over "borrowers" even though the database table was named borrowers, for instance. There will always be tradeoffs. I think "they" is the best option given the available choices, for reasons already articulated.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">> The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a person in some comment. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">If you're referring to my bug, you've misunderstood my comment; an object, not a person, was being referred to as "he" and I changed it to "it."</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Best,</span><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">Eric Phetteplace</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">Systems Librarian</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">California College of the Arts</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><a href="http://libraries.cca.edu" target="_blank">libraries.cca.edu</a> | <a href="http://vault.cca.edu" target="_blank">vault.cca.edu</a><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">510.594.3660</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif" size="1">2>/dev/null</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Philippe Blouin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philippe.blouin@inlibro.com" target="_blank">philippe.blouin@inlibro.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>That's no strawman, that's a genuine questionning. <br>
</p>
<p>You talk inclusivity, I'm all for it, but can we walk the talk
now? 'They' is a bigger barrier to entry than 'he' for
non-English readers/coders. But hey, what do I know, what is my
perspective here? The stated initiative is good: the majority of
users are female, the code is male-centric, can we be progressive,
inclusive... But 'they' sucks. As I said, why not use "she" ?<br>
</p>
<p>I don't send formating and commenting patches, the QA team having
quite enough on its plate already.</p><span class="">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020moz-signature">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020sig_inlibro">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020sig_content"> <span class="m_-2018691709855738020nom">Philippe Blouin,</span><br>
<span class="m_-2018691709855738020tagline m_-2018691709855738020small">Responsable du développement
informatique</span><br>
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</div>
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</span><div><div class="h5"><div class="m_-2018691709855738020moz-cite-prefix">On 04/19/2017 03:20 PM, Chris Cormack
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Of course we won't fail patches, thanks for the strawman. We can
easily fix them instead. In fact I volunteer to do that. <br>
<br>
You're welcome to fix grammar too, send some patches. <br>
<br>
And of course you can vote -1 you just did. I certainly noticed
it. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 20 April 2017 7:16:22 AM NZST,
Philippe Blouin <a class="m_-2018691709855738020moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philippe.blouin@inlibro.com" target="_blank"><philippe.blouin@inlibro.com></a> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>My mistake, I hadn't read the original bugzilla. :-(<br>
</p>
<p>Well, can I -1 this or only +1 are politically acceptable?
Since this is politic, really. Could you amend the ticket
to also rewrite all the comments to some acceptable level of
English, to start with? Syntax, grammar, conjugation... <br>
</p>
<p>Call me obtuse, but 'they' can be quite offputting in the
middle of a sentence. I've read some short novels with that
usage (used as an androgynous pronoun). To someone whose
first language is not English, that can be quite
disconcerting on first and second read. <br>
</p>
<p>The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a
person in some comment. Well, that's the type of things
that occurs in a software partly written by French (I'm not
pointing), Indians and Finns... You want to set a rule
forcing them to use proper English, you'll fail their
patches because of it, in the name of inclusivity??? That's
productive...</p>
<p>Frankly, a much better "rule" should have been to write all
comments using the <u>female</u> form. Clear and concise.
But I don't believe that was the aim of the ticket...<br>
</p>
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020moz-signature">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020sig_inlibro">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020sig_content"> <span class="m_-2018691709855738020nom">Philippe
Blouin,</span><br>
<span class="m_-2018691709855738020tagline m_-2018691709855738020small">Responsable du développement
informatique</span><br>
<p class="m_-2018691709855738020desc m_-2018691709855738020small"> Tél. : <a href="tel:(888)%20604-2627" value="+18886042627" target="_blank">(888) 604-2627</a><br>
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</p>
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<div class="m_-2018691709855738020moz-cite-prefix">On 04/19/2017 02:18 PM, Jonathan
Druart wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">The patches only affect code comments so no
translation needed.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at 15:12 Philippe
Blouin <<a href="mailto:philippe.blouin@inlibro.com" target="_blank">philippe.blouin@inlibro.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>How many of "these" are there to change? Not
that the work itself will be massive, but putting
a 'they' in the middle of a sentence does not make
it easy to translate intuitively, I would think.
If it's a consideration (it is for non-English
users, at least).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125moz-signature">
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<div class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125sig_content">
<span class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125nom">Philippe
Blouin,</span><br>
<span class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125tagline m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125small">Responsable du
développement informatique</span><br>
<p class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125desc m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125small"> Tél. : (888)
604-2627<br>
<a href="mailto:philippe.blouin@inLibro.com" target="_blank">philippe.blouin@inLibro.com</a>
</p>
</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="m_-2018691709855738020m_-8841806907294435125moz-cite-prefix">On
04/19/2017 01:16 PM, Jonathan Druart wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>The next step would be to provide a check
to our QA tests to make sure we will not
introduce future occurrences.<br>
</div>
I am pretty sure they will not be caught
manually by QAers.<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at
13:56 Eric Phetteplace <<a href="mailto:ephetteplace@cca.edu" target="_blank">ephetteplace@cca.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi
Paul,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">English
has a singular "they". It doesn't
suggest androgyny, either, from the
definitions I've seen. For instance,
Oxford English Dictionary:</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><font face="georgia, serif">2. In
anaphoric reference to a singular
noun or pronoun of undetermined
gender: he or she.</font><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">The
first usage example OED provides is
from 1375. I don't think replacing
"he" with "she" addresses the
problem, it's still assuming a
default gender. It's not too much
tricker to search code for he/him
& replace with they/them but
that's also just an implementation
issue, not a policy one.<br>
<br>
<br>
It sounds like people are otherwise
supportive but I'm not sure what the
next step should be.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><font face="georgia,
serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Best,</span><br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font face="georgia,
serif">Eric
Phetteplace</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia,
serif">Systems
Librarian</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia,
serif">California
College of the
Arts</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia,
serif"><a href="http://libraries.cca.edu" target="_blank">libraries.cca.edu</a> | <a href="http://vault.cca.edu" target="_blank">vault.cca.edu</a><br>
</font></div>
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serif"><a href="tel:(510)%20594-3660" value="+15105943660" target="_blank">510.594.3660</a></font></div>
<div><font face="georgia,
serif" size="1">2>/dev/null</font></div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr
19, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Paul A <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul.a@navalmarinearchive.com" target="_blank">paul.a@navalmarinearchive.com</a><wbr>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On
2017-04-18 08:25 PM, Eric
Phetteplace wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi
list,<br>
<br>
I opened bug<br>
</blockquote>
</span> [snip]<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Before*:*<br>
</blockquote>
<span> "Kid growing and become a
juvenile, he should pay "<br>
</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> After:<br>
</blockquote>
<span> "Kid growing and become a
juvenile, they should pay "<br>
<br>
</span> Political correctness has
never been my strong point
(although I try to understand it),
but I'm proficient in grammatical
rigour. [1]<br>
<br>
"Kid" is a singular noun, "a" is a
singular article -- "they" is a
plural pronoun. Perhaps replace
"they" with "[s]he"? or "Kids
growing and becoming juveniles,
they should pay"?<br>
<br>
From a code maintenance p.o.v.,
it's easier to find and replace
'he' with '[s]he' if really this
becomes a priority for Koha.<br>
<br>
Best -- Paul<br>
<br>
[1] I am aware of the so-called
"singular third person epicene
'they'", but academically object
to it -- it often suggests
androgyny rather than gender
neutrality.
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