From paul.poulain@free.fr Fri Jul 10 01:22:45 2026
From: Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr>
To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org
Subject: [Koha-devel] prog templates (once again)...
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:32:06 +0100
Message-ID: <43CD2A16.6020506@free.fr>
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Sorry to bother you once again with this subject...

I really tried to code with prog templates. But that's a pain...
Because there are some features that have to be coded in the template. 
Like javascript or some important css/html things that can't be removed 
imho.

Just one example : in acquisition directory, there is a doNotPrint css 
(in default templates) that makes a table column to be NOT printed 
(through a media=print stylesheet) we should not remove this stylesheet 
or we loose a feature !

I agree that actual default templates have to be improved.
- doc-head-open and doc-head-close in prog templates are a good idea.
- dividing menus in mainmenu / submenu is also a good idea.
- we could have a unique id for each div (bloc). It's name could be the 
template name+ a number. With this a local stylesheet could remove a 
feature unwanted through the stylesheet.

My idea is that the templates should be only one, and includes directory 
/ stylesheet being local. That could give enough freedom to template 
designers.

Let me know what you think, and maybe have a meeting on irc to definetly 
decide something.
-- 
Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT
Consultants indépendants
en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)



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From paul.poulain@free.fr Fri Jul 10 01:22:45 2026
From: Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr>
To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org
Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] prog templates (once again)...
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:39:01 +0100
Message-ID: <43CE5305.9090906@free.fr>
In-Reply-To: <43CD2A16.6020506@free.fr>
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OK, I gave prog templates a last chance...
and worked on acquisitions to be sure every template is valid XHTML 
(there was some missing + lot of XHTML error)

And finally I agree to work with PROG...
I just have some comments to have consistent templates :
* validate the XHTML. to do this, the best is to : set insecure=yes in 
system preferences && have the webdev toolbar installed on firefox && 
ctrl-shift-H to validate the current page in the w3c validator.

* Some html proposals :
- use h1 for page main title
- use h2 for bloc level title
- write forms with : <p><label>text</label><input type="..."></p>, NOT 
with <table>
- use <table> as few as possible (and only where tables are useful)
- don't use <caption> at the beginning of tables, at least not for table 
title. As most blocs are not table, the caption does not exist 
everywhere. Use h2 instead

Questions :
* the toggle variable is what the template designers must use when 
wanting a toggle color in <table> : <!-- TMPL_IF name="toggle" --><td 
with_toggle1_parameter><!-- TMPL_IF --><td with_toggle0_parameter><!-- 
/TMPL_IF --> I suggest having a style "toggled" in the css to check that 
the HTML is correct.

* begin every "invariant" bloc with <!-- KOHA id="X" --> where X is a 
number : that is a big task and only useful is someone is ready to 
develop a "template compiler" (like the translator compiler). The idea 
would be to : be able to report blocs in a local template to have synch 
easier. An example :
==============
my local template
<p>something specific to me....</p>
<!-- KOHA id="1" -->
something coming from prog templates, unmodified
<!-- /KOHA -->
<!-- KOHA id="2" MODIFIED -->
Something modified locally, even if it exist in prog templates
<!-- /KOHA -->
<p> something still specific...</p>

the compiler would automatically replace the KOHA id=1 in the template, 
but let the KOHA id="2" as is, warning the user to check manually for a 
change.

Does it sound interesting ? It would only is template designers plan not 
to modify invariant blocs, even for some spelling reasons (like "book 
bag" in NPL template where default says "basket" !)

-- 
Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT
Consultants indépendants
en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)



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From richard@katipo.co.nz Fri Jul 10 01:22:45 2026
From: Richard Anderson <richard@katipo.co.nz>
To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org
Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] prog templates (once again)...
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:22:14 +1300
Message-ID: <43CEBF96.7080507@katipo.co.nz>
In-Reply-To: <43CE5305.9090906@free.fr>
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Hi,

Just a couple of comments...

Paul POULAIN wrote:
> 
> * Some html proposals :
> - use h1 for page main title
> - use h2 for bloc level title
> - write forms with : <p><label>text</label><input type="..."></p>, NOT 
> with <table>

I think there is a problem here in that the <label> tag has been used as 
for formatting (with CSS styles) rather than its intended use as an 
accessibility aid. So people will find it hard to add in <label> tags to 
other parts of the forms without distorting the page layout.

When used as an accessibility aid the <label> tag can really speed up 
how people use forms - especially for radio buttons and checkboxes - you 
get a big target to click on to check the input.

Rather than apply a style to the <label> tag, I think it would be better 
to wrap it in <span> with the style applied to the span.

So the above example would be:
<p><span class="label"><label for="somename">text</label></span> <input 
type="..." id="somename" /></p>

This would enable someone, perhaps me, to add in the accessibility 
features which the <label> tag enables.

There is an explanation of how the <label> tag should be used at 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL
and
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#forms-grouping


> - use <table> as few as possible (and only where tables are useful)
> - don't use <caption> at the beginning of tables, at least not for table 
> title. As most blocs are not table, the caption does not exist 
> everywhere. Use h2 instead
> 
> Questions :
> * the toggle variable is what the template designers must use when 
> wanting a toggle color in <table> : <!-- TMPL_IF name="toggle" --><td 
> with_toggle1_parameter><!-- TMPL_IF --><td with_toggle0_parameter><!-- 
> /TMPL_IF --> I suggest having a style "toggled" in the css to check that 
> the HTML is correct.

I think it would be nice to add a unique id to each table. This would 
give a lot more options for people to format how each table looks via 
some contextual css. I guess in most cases it wouldn't be used but I 
think it is an easy  option to add in at the templating stage.

eg
The class="toggled" in the 2 tables below could easily be made to look 
quite different via css without having to edit the template.

<table id="table1">
<tr>
	<td class="toggled">text</td>
	<td class="toggled">text</td>
</tr>
</table>
	
<table id="table2">
<tr>
	<td class="toggled">text</td>
	<td class="toggled">text</td>
</tr>
</table>



> 
> * begin every "invariant" bloc with <!-- KOHA id="X" --> where X is a 
> number : that is a big task and only useful is someone is ready to 
> develop a "template compiler" (like the translator compiler). The idea 
> would be to : be able to report blocs in a local template to have synch 
> easier. An example :
> ==============
> my local template
> <p>something specific to me....</p>
> <!-- KOHA id="1" -->
> something coming from prog templates, unmodified
> <!-- /KOHA -->
> <!-- KOHA id="2" MODIFIED -->
> Something modified locally, even if it exist in prog templates
> <!-- /KOHA -->
> <p> something still specific...</p>
> 
> the compiler would automatically replace the KOHA id=1 in the template, 
> but let the KOHA id="2" as is, warning the user to check manually for a 
> change.
> 
> Does it sound interesting ? It would only is template designers plan not 
> to modify invariant blocs, even for some spelling reasons (like "book 
> bag" in NPL template where default says "basket" !)
> 

This sounds like a great idea.

Cheers,
Richard

-- 
Richard Anderson
Project Manager
Katipo Communications
PO Box 12487
Wellington
Web:    http://www.katipo.co.nz/
Ph:     (04) 934 4251 (DDI)
         (04) 934 1285
Fax:    (04) 934 1286
Mobile: 021 043 3649



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From paul.poulain@free.fr Fri Jul 10 01:22:45 2026
From: Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr>
To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org
Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] prog templates (once again)...
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:26:52 +0100
Message-ID: <43CF4D4C.3070500@free.fr>
In-Reply-To: <43CEBF96.7080507@katipo.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Richard Anderson a écrit :
>> - write forms with : <p><label>text</label><input type="..."></p>, NOT 
>> with <table>
> I think there is a problem here in that the <label> tag has been used as 
> for formatting (with CSS styles) rather than its intended use as an 
> accessibility aid. So people will find it hard to add in <label> tags to 
> other parts of the forms without distorting the page layout.
> 
> When used as an accessibility aid the <label> tag can really speed up 
> how people use forms - especially for radio buttons and checkboxes - you 
> get a big target to click on to check the input.
> 
> Rather than apply a style to the <label> tag, I think it would be better 
> to wrap it in <span> with the style applied to the span.
> 
> So the above example would be:
> <p><span class="label"><label for="somename">text</label></span> <input 
> type="..." id="somename" /></p>
> 
> This would enable someone, perhaps me, to add in the accessibility 
> features which the <label> tag enables.

OK for the accessibility, owen already entered a lot of for="...", and 
accesskey would be interesting too.
But I don't see why we also need the <span>. The <label> can also be 
used as CSS. and we could/should avoid having a <span>. Were am I wrong 
here ?

> I think it would be nice to add a unique id to each table. This would 
> give a lot more options for people to format how each table looks via 
> some contextual css. I guess in most cases it wouldn't be used but I 
> think it is an easy  option to add in at the templating stage.

OK agreed.
>> * begin every "invariant" bloc with <!-- KOHA id="X" --> where X is a 
>> number : that is a big task and only useful is someone is ready to 
>> develop a "template compiler" (like the translator compiler). The idea 
>> would be to : be able to report blocs in a local template to have 
>> synch easier. An example :
> This sounds like a great idea.

We spoke of this on irc with owen. Another idea, that sounds better, 
would be to have a
<div id="templatename_what_it_is_for>
</div>
That could serve the same purposes of "template compiling" AND enable 
css driven only theme.

At the end, all templates should contain :
* a include menu.inc
* a include menu_module.inc (acquisition, catalogue, circulation, 
authorities...)
* a include template_bottom.inc (do we need a template_module_bottom.inc ?)
* a content, that can highly be css driven, through <div> and id.
* all necessary things to create a "template compiler" if someone want 
to write it.

-- 
Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT
Consultants indépendants
en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)



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From richard@katipo.co.nz Fri Jul 10 01:22:45 2026
From: Richard Anderson <richard@katipo.co.nz>
To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org
Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] prog templates (once again)...
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:11:55 +1300
Message-ID: <43D054FB.2070009@katipo.co.nz>
In-Reply-To: <43CF4D4C.3070500@free.fr>
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Paul POULAIN wrote:
  > OK for the accessibility, owen already entered a lot of for="...", and
> accesskey would be interesting too.
> But I don't see why we also need the <span>. The <label> can also be 
> used as CSS. and we could/should avoid having a <span>. Were am I wrong 
> here ?

I can't quite recall where (and it mightn't have even been in Koha) but 
I think there were some radio buttons which were on the same line. So 
what I was thinking was that if we put labels on the names for the radio 
buttons they would get spread apart because of the css on the label tag.
eg

Is it Sunny?         : Yes  : No

if we put a <label for> on the Yes and No it would become

Is it Sunny?         : Yes                    : No


Cheers,
Richard


-- 
Richard Anderson
Project Manager
Katipo Communications
PO Box 12487
Wellington
Web:    http://www.katipo.co.nz/
Ph:     (04) 934 4251 (DDI)
         (04) 934 1285
Fax:    (04) 934 1286
Mobile: 021 043 3649



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