The new CCSR theme which will be included in 3.10 demonstrates how a theme can be made responsive, so that the design and layout of a page can change depending on the device width. I think the "default" Koha OPAC should use this technique too. Making this kind of change gives us the opportunity to make other changes too, and I'd love to hear from others about what changes those might be, whether they be ideas about the design, layout, or structure. Some ideas off the top of my head: - Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design. - Use consistent indentation rules on all templates - Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency) - Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change. I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals. -- Owen -- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org
Le 04/10/2012 21:51, Owen Leonard a écrit :
The new CCSR theme which will be included in 3.10 demonstrates how a theme can be made responsive, so that the design and layout of a page can change depending on the device width.
I think the "default" Koha OPAC should use this technique too.
Making this kind of change gives us the opportunity to make other changes too, and I'd love to hear from others about what changes those might be, whether they be ideas about the design, layout, or structure. Some ideas off the top of my head:
- Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design. - Use consistent indentation rules on all templates - Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency) - Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change.
I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals.
-- Owen
- Use BLOCK, PROCESS and WRAPPER Template::Toolkit directives everywhere. I think this could greatly reduces the size of template files and make writing of templates much easier. My 2 cents. -- Julian Maurice <julian.maurice@biblibre.com> BibLibre
I'm not so sure about switching to bootstrap.. it's not as backwards compatible as jQuery UI for older browsers... but it's an idea. I would be tempted to use a css framwork though.. (may most of the advatnages can come from using more features of template toolkit though.. someone stpe in and correct me if thats true). SASS and LESS are both good css framework options.. giving you more programatic type options within your style. Another 2 cents for the pile ;) On 5 October 2012 07:51, Julian Maurice <julian.maurice@biblibre.com> wrote:
Le 04/10/2012 21:51, Owen Leonard a écrit :
The new CCSR theme which will be included in 3.10 demonstrates how a
theme can be made responsive, so that the design and layout of a page can change depending on the device width.
I think the "default" Koha OPAC should use this technique too.
Making this kind of change gives us the opportunity to make other changes too, and I'd love to hear from others about what changes those might be, whether they be ideas about the design, layout, or structure. Some ideas off the top of my head:
- Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design. - Use consistent indentation rules on all templates - Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency) - Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change.
I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals.
-- Owen
- Use BLOCK, PROCESS and WRAPPER Template::Toolkit directives everywhere. I think this could greatly reduces the size of template files and make writing of templates much easier.
My 2 cents.
-- Julian Maurice <julian.maurice@biblibre.com> BibLibre
______________________________**_________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-**community.org<Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> http://lists.koha-community.**org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**koha-devel<http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.**org/ <http://bugs.koha-community.org/>
-- Martin Renvoize Software Engineer, PTFS Europe Ltd Content Management and Library Solutions Skype: Mobile: 07725985636 http://www.ptfs-europe.com
On 2012-10-5, at 9:34 PM, Martin Renvoize wrote:
I'm not so sure about switching to bootstrap.. it's not as backwards compatible as jQuery UI for older browsers... but it's an idea.
3 reasons why jquery-ui is a no-go for Owen's Koha requirements... 1/ jquery-ui has no positioning functionality 2/ jquery-ui has no 'responsive' functionality 2/ jquery-ui forces developers to use javascript, not html for basic tasks and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility +1 for bootstrap
I would be tempted to use a css framwork though.. (may most of the advatnages can come from using more features of template toolkit though.. someone stpe in and correct me if thats true).
SASS and LESS are both good css framework options.. giving you more programatic type options within your style.
Another 2 cents for the pile ;)
On 5 October 2012 07:51, Julian Maurice <julian.maurice@biblibre.com> wrote: Le 04/10/2012 21:51, Owen Leonard a écrit :
The new CCSR theme which will be included in 3.10 demonstrates how a theme can be made responsive, so that the design and layout of a page can change depending on the device width.
I think the "default" Koha OPAC should use this technique too.
Making this kind of change gives us the opportunity to make other changes too, and I'd love to hear from others about what changes those might be, whether they be ideas about the design, layout, or structure. Some ideas off the top of my head:
- Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design. - Use consistent indentation rules on all templates - Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency) - Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change.
I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals.
-- Owen
- Use BLOCK, PROCESS and WRAPPER Template::Toolkit directives everywhere. I think this could greatly reduces the size of template files and make writing of templates much easier.
My 2 cents.
-- Julian Maurice <julian.maurice@biblibre.com> BibLibre
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Martin Renvoize Software Engineer, PTFS Europe Ltd Content Management and Library Solutions Skype: Mobile: 07725985636
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
cheers, Mason -- KohaAloha, NZ
and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility
Only works on OS X and Windows??? And Firefox > 5? I'm pretty sure we've lots of Linux users, probably some tablets and mobiles and probably still Firefox 3.x versions out there. I think this needs some pre-inclusion testing. I'm happy to point whatever browsers I can at test sites if anyone's got some? Collect results on wiki.koha-community.org? My experience has been that many of the supposedly-responsive grid systems fail on mobile or non-JS devices. It'd be good to crack this right first time. Thanks, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/
Two browser compatibility test sites I am aware of: http://browsershots.org/ http://netrenderer.com/ Regards Marc Véron Am 05.10.2012 13:26, schrieb MJ Ray:
and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility
Only works on OS X and Windows??? And Firefox > 5? I'm pretty sure we've lots of Linux users, probably some tablets and mobiles and probably still Firefox 3.x versions out there.
I think this needs some pre-inclusion testing. I'm happy to point whatever browsers I can at test sites if anyone's got some? Collect results on wiki.koha-community.org?
My experience has been that many of the supposedly-responsive grid systems fail on mobile or non-JS devices. It'd be good to crack this right first time.
Thanks,
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:26 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility
Only works on OS X and Windows??? And Firefox > 5? I'm pretty sure we've lots of Linux users, probably some tablets and mobiles and probably still Firefox 3.x versions out there.
That list cannot be exhaustive. I've been using Bootstrap and I *only* view them on Linux machines, and I've never had a problem. I am using Kubuntu with Firefox and Chrome. I would assume I'm using the latest versions, but I don't try to keep up with the latest versions. Kyle
On 2012-10-6, at 12:56 AM, Kyle Hall wrote:
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:26 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility
Only works on OS X and Windows??? And Firefox > 5? I'm pretty sure we've lots of Linux users, probably some tablets and mobiles and probably still Firefox 3.x versions out there.
ok, ok. the 'firefox > 5' point is fair debian stable is still on firefox-3.5, the next debian release includes firefox-10 http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/iceweasel http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/iceweasel so, the bad news is that *currently* bootstrap doesn't run on debian-stable's firefox... until the next debian release
That list cannot be exhaustive. I've been using Bootstrap and I *only* view them on Linux machines, and I've never had a problem. I am using Kubuntu with Firefox and Chrome. I would assume I'm using the latest versions, but I don't try to keep up with the latest versions.
yep, thats been my experience with bootstrap on linux too (who knows why the bootstrap team didn't add linux and BSD compatibility info)
At 12:11 PM 10/6/2012 +1300, Mason James wrote: [snip]
so, the bad news is that *currently* bootstrap doesn't run on debian-stable's firefox... until the next debian release
Also, anyone setting up a library "kiosk" using older hardware (as a charity on a non-existent budget, we have several of them) is going to be limited to Firefox 3.5 (possibly 3.6 built on Gecko 1.9.2?) regardless of later releases. I could dig out my notes, but from memory you can't get a more recent Firefox (12+, now 15?) to work on a Pentium (or at least with any degree of ease, reliability, etc) and I also seem to remember that we came to the same conclusion with Chrome. Opera seemed to be the exception, but is not (statistically) popular. While trying to remain in the realm of political correctness, many Koha users seem to be from "less developed" parts of the world where older hardware is more common. IE6 is also running into the bottom percentile range, but still has a good representation in some countries ... I personally believe that Bootstrap could genuinely offer a lot of potential, but perhaps not for all users? Best - Paul
I believe Koha needs to keep maximum standards compliance and backwards compatibility, as we often do encounter older hardware and software in the line of international duty. However, we do have the mechanisms in place to support multiple templates. The chief difficulty with using this feature has been keeping up to date with the changes in passed variables. If we rigourized the variables available on any given page, and agreed not to make changes to that model except with major releases (and document the changes thoroughly), it would be a lot easier to develop and maintain different templates that meet different needs. We could provide, by default, a very slick Bootstrap-based template, as well as a lean, quick-loading, highly compatible template. In general, I think we need to be very cognizant of what minimum requirements we assign to Koha, both for client and server, in order to make it was easy to adopt and use as possible. Ian On Oct 5, 2012 7:42 PM, "Paul" <paul.a@aandc.org> wrote:
At 12:11 PM 10/6/2012 +1300, Mason James wrote: [snip]
so, the bad news is that *currently* bootstrap doesn't run on debian-stable's firefox... until the next debian release
Also, anyone setting up a library "kiosk" using older hardware (as a charity on a non-existent budget, we have several of them) is going to be limited to Firefox 3.5 (possibly 3.6 built on Gecko 1.9.2?) regardless of later releases. I could dig out my notes, but from memory you can't get a more recent Firefox (12+, now 15?) to work on a Pentium (or at least with any degree of ease, reliability, etc) and I also seem to remember that we came to the same conclusion with Chrome. Opera seemed to be the exception, but is not (statistically) popular.
While trying to remain in the realm of political correctness, many Koha users seem to be from "less developed" parts of the world where older hardware is more common. IE6 is also running into the bottom percentile range, but still has a good representation in some countries ... I personally believe that Bootstrap could genuinely offer a lot of potential, but perhaps not for all users?
Best - Paul
______________________________**_________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-**community.org<Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> http://lists.koha-community.**org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**koha-devel<http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.**org/ <http://bugs.koha-community.org/>
On 2012-10-7, at 5:27 AM, Ian Walls wrote:
I believe Koha needs to keep maximum standards compliance and backwards compatibility, as we often do encounter older hardware and software in the line of international duty.
However, we do have the mechanisms in place to support multiple templates. The chief difficulty with using this feature has been keeping up to date with the changes in passed variables. If we rigourized the variables available on any given page, and agreed not to make changes to that model except with major releases (and document the changes thoroughly), it would be a lot easier to develop and maintain different templates that meet different needs.
We could provide, by default, a very slick Bootstrap-based template, as well as a lean, quick-loading, highly compatible template.
wow!, that an awesome idea Ian, (something i had not thought of) i'll have a go at this task, in my spare time... :)
In general, I think we need to be very cognizant of what minimum requirements we assign to Koha, both for client and server, in order to make it was easy to adopt and use as possible.
Ian
On Oct 5, 2012 7:42 PM, "Paul" <paul.a@aandc.org> wrote: At 12:11 PM 10/6/2012 +1300, Mason James wrote: [snip] so, the bad news is that *currently* bootstrap doesn't run on debian-stable's firefox... until the next debian release
Also, anyone setting up a library "kiosk" using older hardware (as a charity on a non-existent budget, we have several of them) is going to be limited to Firefox 3.5 (possibly 3.6 built on Gecko 1.9.2?) regardless of later releases. I could dig out my notes, but from memory you can't get a more recent Firefox (12+, now 15?) to work on a Pentium (or at least with any degree of ease, reliability, etc) and I also seem to remember that we came to the same conclusion with Chrome. Opera seemed to be the exception, but is not (statistically) popular.
While trying to remain in the realm of political correctness, many Koha users seem to be from "less developed" parts of the world where older hardware is more common. IE6 is also running into the bottom percentile range, but still has a good representation in some countries ... I personally believe that Bootstrap could genuinely offer a lot of potential, but perhaps not for all users?
Best - Paul
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
cheers, Mason -- KohaAloha, NZ
Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:26 AM, MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
and, bootstrap has great backwards compatibility -> http://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/wiki/Browser-Compatibility [...] That list cannot be exhaustive. I've been using Bootstrap and I *only* view them on Linux machines, and I've never had a problem. I am using Kubuntu with Firefox and Chrome. I would assume I'm using the latest versions, but I don't try to keep up with the latest versions.
It might not be exhaustive. It probably just needs testing to make sure we're not about to screw over low-resource and/or mobile users that Koha worked for until now. Hope that clarifies, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/
- Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design.
As a recent user of Bootstrap, I give this two thumbs up.
- Use consistent indentation rules on all templates
Totally agreed. What we really need is perltidy for TT files. There is no such thing, and my attempts to write one have stalled : /
- Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency)
Agreed. Though modern browsers compensate for this quite well, I cannot see a reason not to do so anyway.
- Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change.
One of the issues with the two OPAC themes is that jquery customization are largely incompatible between the two. I don't know if the is reconcilable, but I doubt it.
I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals.
Sounds good to me! Kyle
Thanks for helping get the conversation going everyone. Some random replies:
jQueryUI
jQueryUI and Bootstrap are not mutually exclusive. jQueryUI *only* provides interface widgets like tabs, datepickers, etc. It doesn't do a CSS grid. Bootstrap could be used *only* for the grid if we wanted to. I think we might end up using both. Bootstrap, for instance, has a really useful menu system which jQueryUI lacks.
SASS and LESS
These are not CSS frameworks, but tools for writing and deploying JavaScript. Bootstrap is designed to be used with LESS, and if there is enthusiasm from everyone to do so we can look at working LESS into our workflow. I'm not sold on it yet for our purposes.
Browser compatibility
I agree 100% that we can't pick something that isn't going to be backwards-compatible enough. I think the exclusion of Linux from that list is a narrow-minded omission rather than real data, but of course testing is required.
JavaScript dependence
It has always been my goal, and will continue to be, that the OPAC function without JavaScript. Bootstrap uses JavaScript for widgets just like jQueryUI does, but it does not require it for layout or responsiveness.
JavaScript customization across themes
I imagine there's some steps to take to mitigate this problem, but since we don't offer user switchable themes I'm not sure how far we *need* to go. I would imagine libraries would pick one, customize, and deploy. -- Owen -- Web Developer Athens County Public Libraries http://www.myacpl.org
On 2012-10-6, at 1:00 AM, Kyle Hall wrote:
- Use the Bootstrap framework both for the responsive CSS grid and for the interface widgets (buttons, menus, etc)--but not be slavish to the default Bootstrap design.
As a recent user of Bootstrap, I give this two thumbs up.
- Use consistent indentation rules on all templates
Totally agreed. What we really need is perltidy for TT files. There is no such thing, and my attempts to write one have stalled : /
I've recently been experimenting with tidy-html5 on .tt files http://w3c.github.com/tidy-html5/ also, sublime's auto-indent feature does an pretty-good job on .tt files too (i'm not suggesting we us this one for Koha) http://www.sublimetext.com/ anyone know if there is a good html/tt indenter/formatter for vim?
- Move JavaScript to the bottom of the page (recommended for efficiency)
Agreed. Though modern browsers compensate for this quite well, I cannot see a reason not to do so anyway.
- Address the needs of people who want to do customization via CSS and JavaScript. To that end I'd love to hear from the people who are doing customizations for libraries about their paint points--what aspects of the OPAC are difficult to change.
One of the issues with the two OPAC themes is that jquery customization are largely incompatible between the two. I don't know if the is reconcilable, but I doubt it.
I'd like to start working on this, but I think to do it right I think we need some shared goals.
Sounds good to me!
Kyle
participants (9)
-
Ian Walls -
Julian Maurice -
Kyle Hall -
Marc Véron -
Martin Renvoize -
Mason James -
MJ Ray -
Owen Leonard -
Paul