Hi, While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10. However, we use the '/r' regex modifier which was introduced in 5.14. There may be other features that we use that are not in Perl 5.10. Considering that even debian oldstable has Perl 5.24, it should be safe to raise the minimum required version to 5.24. What do you think ? -- Julian Maurice BibLibre
Hi, Indeed, since minimum OS is Debian Stretch. Is it even useful to tell Perl requirement ? Best regards, Le 24/06/2020 à 09:46, Julian Maurice a écrit :
Hi,
While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10. However, we use the '/r' regex modifier which was introduced in 5.14. There may be other features that we use that are not in Perl 5.10. Considering that even debian oldstable has Perl 5.24, it should be safe to raise the minimum required version to 5.24. What do you think ?
-- Fridolin SOMERS <fridolin.somers@biblibre.com> Software and system maintainer 🦄 BibLibre, France
Debian and Ubuntu are the recommended systems, but are not required. I think it's useful to know the Perl requirements for people that want to install Koha on other systems. Le 24/06/2020 à 12:20, Fridolin SOMERS a écrit :
Hi,
Indeed, since minimum OS is Debian Stretch. Is it even useful to tell Perl requirement ?
Best regards,
Le 24/06/2020 à 09:46, Julian Maurice a écrit :
Hi,
While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10. However, we use the '/r' regex modifier which was introduced in 5.14. There may be other features that we use that are not in Perl 5.10. Considering that even debian oldstable has Perl 5.24, it should be safe to raise the minimum required version to 5.24. What do you think ?
-- Julian Maurice BibLibre
I agree we should raise the minimum version to 5.14 in that case. I think we raised to version 5.10 when we started using the defined-or (//) operator. El mié., 24 jun. 2020 a las 4:46, Julian Maurice (< julian.maurice@biblibre.com>) escribió:
Hi,
While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10. However, we use the '/r' regex modifier which was introduced in 5.14. There may be other features that we use that are not in Perl 5.10. Considering that even debian oldstable has Perl 5.24, it should be safe to raise the minimum required version to 5.24. What do you think ?
-- Julian Maurice BibLibre _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
Greetings, I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use. GPML, Mark Tompsett
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial. Not sure if it is still supported. The thing is, depending on where you look, you find different informations: In the latest release notes: - 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl) On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster. So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ? Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Julian Maurice BibLibre
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now. I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful. As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules. Best -- Paul The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday. Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year." -- As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26. Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl. I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS. So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl. David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now. I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful. As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules. Best -- Paul The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
I tried to advocate switching to 5.22 as a minimum a while ago but got blocked. At this point.. I'm not entirely sure what upping our minimum beyond what we actually support would achieve.. if we've got 5.14 features in use in code then we should advertise 5.14 as the minimum... I would like to see a justification for upping the minimum in so much as there's certain perl features I'd love to start using but can't due to our support policies.. if we're going to set a new minimum it should be based on either the lowest version with the code feature we currently utilise or should be upped to a version which include features our developers have argued for and agreed to use. Just my two cents. As for the Perl 7 question.. I personally would love to see us work on modernising our codebase to be happy with modern defaults. it would make everyones lives easier to strive for best practice and might help encourage new blood into the project if we're seen to be a bit more modern and forward thinking ;). *Martin Renvoize* <https://www.ptfs-europe.com> Development Team Manager Community Release Manager (19.11, 20.05) *Phone:* +44 (0) 1483 378728 *Mobile:* +44 (0) 7725 985 636 *Email:* martin.renvoize@ptfs-europe.com *Fax:* +44 (0) 800 756 6384 www.ptfs-europe.com Registered in the United Kingdom No. 06416372 VAT Reg No. 925 7211 30 The information contained in this email message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this email message in error, please email the sender at info@ptfs-europe.com On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 05:21, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday.
Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year."
--
As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26.
Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl.
I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS.
So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl.
David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful.
As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules.
Best -- Paul
The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support. --- http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday.
Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year."
--
As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26.
Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl.
I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS.
So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl.
David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful.
As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules.
Best -- Paul
The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
I agree with Martin we should be requiring newer versions when we need them to (say) get better code or results. And we should be consistent. Right now the minimum should be 5.14 and we are not making it clear to the users. External library dependencies might be another reason to shift Perl versions. So all of that is in the mix. And we try to be conservative about this, specially when we pick external libraries and QA should consider this. El jue., 25 jun. 2020 a las 10:55, Kyle Hall (<kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>) escribió:
I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support.
--- http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday.
Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year."
--
As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26.
Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl.
I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS.
So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl.
David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful.
As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules.
Best -- Paul
The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
Those are good points. Personally, I’d like us to specify the Perl version minimum based on actual usage as well. I just wonder how best we determine what the minimum version should be (why 5.14?) and where we specify that. Should we be using “use 5.14.0” in plack.psgi for instance*? Or are we just thinking about specifying the minimum in terms of the Debian packages? I wonder if there is a reliable list of features by Perl version without reading through every delta listed at https://perldoc.perl.org/index-history.html. There is something at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_5_version_history. Looking at “Non-destructive substitution (s///r)”, I see that’s only used 2 (obvious) times and it’s in Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm. That said, that Wikipedia list doesn’t include the nuances of the smart match operator, so it doesn’t seem very comprehensive. I know Martin is interested in subroutine signatures but they look experimental even in 5.30.0 according to https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html#Signatures. Thoughts? *https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/use.html David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 12:02 AM To: Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> Cc: David Cook <dcook@prosentient.com.au>; Koha Devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement I agree with Martin we should be requiring newer versions when we need them to (say) get better code or results. And we should be consistent. Right now the minimum should be 5.14 and we are not making it clear to the users. External library dependencies might be another reason to shift Perl versions. So all of that is in the mix. And we try to be conservative about this, specially when we pick external libraries and QA should consider this. El jue., 25 jun. 2020 a las 10:55, Kyle Hall (<kyle.m.hall@gmail.com <mailto:kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> >) escribió: I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support. --- http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> > wrote: Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday. Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year." -- As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26. Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl. I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS. So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl. David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now. I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful. As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules. Best -- Paul The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ -- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/> ) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
Smart matches where used a while back but marked as experimental and we removed their only uses. 5.10 was required for defined-or, and Julian suggests we need 5.14 because of the use of /r. PS is it me or the reply-to on this list puts the author of the previous message? It should be the list itself. El jue., 25 de junio de 2020 20:31, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> escribió:
Those are good points. Personally, I’d like us to specify the Perl version minimum based on actual usage as well. I just wonder how best we determine what the minimum version should be (why 5.14?) and where we specify that.
Should we be using “use 5.14.0” in plack.psgi for instance*? Or are we just thinking about specifying the minimum in terms of the Debian packages?
I wonder if there is a reliable list of features by Perl version without reading through every delta listed at https://perldoc.perl.org/index-history.html. There is something at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_5_version_history.
Looking at “Non-destructive substitution (s///r)”, I see that’s only used 2 (obvious) times and it’s in Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm.
That said, that Wikipedia list doesn’t include the nuances of the smart match operator, so it doesn’t seem very comprehensive.
I know Martin is interested in subroutine signatures but they look experimental even in 5.30.0 according to https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html#Signatures.
Thoughts?
*https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/use.html
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899
Online: 02 8005 0595
*From:* Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 12:02 AM *To:* Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> *Cc:* David Cook <dcook@prosentient.com.au>; Koha Devel < koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> *Subject:* Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
I agree with Martin we should be requiring newer versions when we need them to (say) get better code or results.
And we should be consistent. Right now the minimum should be 5.14 and we are not making it clear to the users.
External library dependencies might be another reason to shift Perl versions. So all of that is in the mix. And we try to be conservative about this, specially when we pick external libraries and QA should consider this.
El jue., 25 jun. 2020 a las 10:55, Kyle Hall (<kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>) escribió:
I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support.
---
http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday.
Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year."
--
As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26.
Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl.
I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS.
So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl.
David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful.
As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules.
Best -- Paul
The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
--
Tomás Cohen Arazi
Theke Solutions (http://theke.io) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
Yeah, I remember when we used to use them, but then removed them due them changing so much. Ahh. That does sound pretty well thought out then. Yeah, let’s up it to 5.14, as we definitely require it for Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm, and no one should be running a Linux system with < 5.14 these days. Anyone running RHEL 6 should really be upgrading. Oh, I do a Reply All that includes the author of the previous message. Personally, I filter koha-devel, so if someone replies directly to me, I see it before I check my filtered koha-devel folder. I figure other people do the same so I do the same. David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Tomas Cohen Arazi Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 10:06 AM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement Smart matches where used a while back but marked as experimental and we removed their only uses. 5.10 was required for defined-or, and Julian suggests we need 5.14 because of the use of /r. PS is it me or the reply-to on this list puts the author of the previous message? It should be the list itself. El jue., 25 de junio de 2020 20:31, <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> > escribió: Those are good points. Personally, I’d like us to specify the Perl version minimum based on actual usage as well. I just wonder how best we determine what the minimum version should be (why 5.14?) and where we specify that. Should we be using “use 5.14.0” in plack.psgi for instance*? Or are we just thinking about specifying the minimum in terms of the Debian packages? I wonder if there is a reliable list of features by Perl version without reading through every delta listed at https://perldoc.perl.org/index-history.html. There is something at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_5_version_history. Looking at “Non-destructive substitution (s///r)”, I see that’s only used 2 (obvious) times and it’s in Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm. That said, that Wikipedia list doesn’t include the nuances of the smart match operator, so it doesn’t seem very comprehensive. I know Martin is interested in subroutine signatures but they look experimental even in 5.30.0 according to https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html#Signatures. Thoughts? *https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/use.html David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com> > Sent: Friday, 26 June 2020 12:02 AM To: Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com <mailto:kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> > Cc: David Cook <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> >; Koha Devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement I agree with Martin we should be requiring newer versions when we need them to (say) get better code or results. And we should be consistent. Right now the minimum should be 5.14 and we are not making it clear to the users. External library dependencies might be another reason to shift Perl versions. So all of that is in the mix. And we try to be conservative about this, specially when we pick external libraries and QA should consider this. El jue., 25 jun. 2020 a las 10:55, Kyle Hall (<kyle.m.hall@gmail.com <mailto:kyle.m.hall@gmail.com> >) escribió: I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support. --- http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org ) On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> > wrote: Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday. Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year." -- As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26. Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl. I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS. So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl. David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial.
Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now. I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful. As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules. Best -- Paul The thing is, depending on where you
look, you find different informations:
In the latest release notes:
- 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster.
So it is not very clear. Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) and make it the "single source of truth" ?
Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit :
Greetings,
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use.
GPML, Mark Tompsett
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ -- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/> ) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
I added the topic to next dev meeting agenda https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_1_July_2020 Le 26/06/2020 à 02:43, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Yeah, I remember when we used to use them, but then removed them due them changing so much.
Ahh. That does sound pretty well thought out then. Yeah, let’s up it to 5.14, as we definitely require it for Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm, and no one should be running a Linux system with < 5.14 these days. Anyone running RHEL 6 should really be upgrading.
Oh, I do a Reply All that includes the author of the previous message. Personally, I filter koha-devel, so if someone replies directly to me, I see it before I check my filtered koha-devel folder. I figure other people do the same so I do the same.
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899
Online: 02 8005 0595
*From:*Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> *On Behalf Of *Tomas Cohen Arazi *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 10:06 AM *To:* koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> *Subject:* Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
Smart matches where used a while back but marked as experimental and we removed their only uses.
5.10 was required for defined-or, and Julian suggests we need 5.14 because of the use of /r.
PS is it me or the reply-to on this list puts the author of the previous message? It should be the list itself.
El jue., 25 de junio de 2020 20:31, <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au>> escribió:
Those are good points. Personally, I’d like us to specify the Perl version minimum based on actual usage as well. I just wonder how best we determine what the minimum version should be (why 5.14?) and where we specify that.
Should we be using “use 5.14.0” in plack.psgi for instance*? Or are we just thinking about specifying the minimum in terms of the Debian packages?
I wonder if there is a reliable list of features by Perl version without reading through every delta listed at https://perldoc.perl.org/index-history.html. There is something at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_5_version_history.
Looking at “Non-destructive substitution (s///r)”, I see that’s only used 2 (obvious) times and it’s in Koha/SearchEngine/Elasticsearch/QueryBuilder.pm.
That said, that Wikipedia list doesn’t include the nuances of the smart match operator, so it doesn’t seem very comprehensive.
I know Martin is interested in subroutine signatures but they look experimental even in 5.30.0 according to https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html#Signatures.
Thoughts?
*https://perldoc.perl.org/functions/use.html
David Cook
Systems Librarian
Prosentient Systems
72/330 Wattle St
Ultimo, NSW 2007
Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899
Online: 02 8005 0595
*From:*Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com>> *Sent:* Friday, 26 June 2020 12:02 AM *To:* Kyle Hall <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com <mailto:kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>> *Cc:* David Cook <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au>>; Koha Devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org>> *Subject:* Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
I agree with Martin we should be requiring newer versions when we need them to (say) get better code or results.
And we should be consistent. Right now the minimum should be 5.14 and we are not making it clear to the users.
External library dependencies might be another reason to shift Perl versions. So all of that is in the mix. And we try to be conservative about this, specially when we pick external libraries and QA should consider this.
El jue., 25 jun. 2020 a las 10:55, Kyle Hall (<kyle.m.hall@gmail.com <mailto:kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>>) escribió:
I doubt we will need to worry about Perl 7 until it's available in Debian. It's essentially 5.32 with some better defaults ( no need to 'use strict' for example ). There will also be a migration path from Perl 5 to Perl 7 ( but not from Perl 5 to Perl 8 ). Perl 5 is expected to have about 10 years of continued support.
---
http://www.kylehall.info ByWater Solutions ( http://bywatersolutions.com ) Meadville Public Library ( http://www.meadvillelibrary.org ) Crawford County Federated Library System ( http://www.ccfls.org )
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:21 AM <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au>> wrote:
Just to add more fuel to the fire, have people heard about Perl 7? It was just announced yesterday.
Unlike Perl 6 (now known as Raku), Perl 7 appears to be an actual backwards compatible successor to Perl 5: https://www.perl.com/article/announcing-perl-7/. If you don't want to read the link, "the bottom line" is "Perl 7 is v5.32 with different settings. Your code should work if it’s not a mess. Expect a user release within a year."
--
As for Perl 5.x versions, in the past, I've said let's stay at 5.10 because of RHEL 6, but RHEL 6 is being retired November 30, 2020 (with an "Extended Life Cycle Support Add-On" available until June 30, 2024). I really don't think we should be hamstrung by RHEL 6 anymore. RHEL 7 comes with 5.16 and RHEL 7's "Software Collections" can be used with Perl 5.20 and Perl 5.24, although I don't think that the RHEL 7 "Software Collections" can be used with the #!/usr/bin/perl shebang (which would be used in CGI and Plack's CGI emulation). That said, RHEL 8 is available now and it comes with Perl 5.26.
Maybe we should just focus on Perl versions for supported Debian/Ubuntu OSes, and if people want to use other OSes, then they just need to upgrade to a newer version that supports a newer Perl.
I think you can install Docker on RHEL 7, so that's another consideration for people running Koha on non-Debian/Ubuntu OSes. They can always just look at implementing a container-based solution, which leverages Debian/Ubuntu as the container OS.
So yeah... let's pick the lowest Perl on our supported Debian/Ubuntu and have that be the minimum supported Perl.
David Cook Systems Librarian Prosentient Systems 72/330 Wattle St Ultimo, NSW 2007 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org>> On Behalf Of Paul A Sent: Thursday, 25 June 2020 9:00 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Perl version requirement
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote: > Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial. > > Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
I obviously cannot speak for more than the organizations with which I am involved, but basically we are all keeping c++, php and perl based code on 16.04 LTS using Apache, and have moved only python coding to 18.04. However, we do use Nginx on 18.04 as a front end, proxying to the 16.04 back ends. We are beginning to look at 20.04, but first impressions of the transition are slightly painful.
As Mark mentions below, Xenial uses Perl 5.22.1-9ubuntu0.6. I understand that the "1-9ubuntu0.6" denotes some fifty patches and fixes on top of "basic 5.22" but not amounting to 5.24. Just for completeness, 18.04 uses perl 5.26, and 20.04 comes with perl 5.30. However, from what I have heard, the perl 5 branch has very few deprecated, let alone removed, details, so backwards compatibility is on a fairly firm footing. In fact, a quick look at 5.22 and 5.26 show very much the same patches, but of course this may not apply to non-core modules.
Best -- Paul
The thing is, depending on where you > look, you find different informations: > > In the latest release notes: > > - 20.05.01 says that the recommended environments are Debian stretch, > Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.10 > - 19.11.07 says that the recommended environments are Debian jessie, > Debian stretch, Debian buster or Ubuntu bionic and requires Perl 5.10 > - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch > or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older > version of Koha require a newer version of Perl) > > On Jenkins, there is a "supported" tab that includes Ubuntu xenial, > bionic and focal, and Debian jessie, stretch and buster. > > So it is not very clear. > Maybe we can include that information in Koha's source (in README ?) > and make it the "single source of truth" ? > > Le 24/06/2020 à 18:40, Mark Tompsett a écrit : >> Greetings, >> >> I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial >> (Ubuntu 16.04) still? If so, then Julian Maurice's suggestion is a >> little over. Xenial has Perl 5.22 in it. If we don't support Xenial, >> then +1 for his suggestion of 5.24 as the Perl version to use. >> >> GPML, >> Mark Tompsett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Koha-devel mailing list >> Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> >> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : >> http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >> >
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
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_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
--
Tomás Cohen Arazi
Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/>) ✆+54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Julian Maurice BibLibre
Hi o/ On 20-06-24 09:46, Julian Maurice wrote:
While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10.
Noticed the same while releasing Koha 19.05.12 ^^ https://gitlab.com/koha-community/release-tools/-/issues/12 Should have also brought the topic here to ask if there are still people managing to run a supported Koha with Perl 5.10 - On 20-06-24 12:34, Julian Maurice wrote:
Debian and Ubuntu are the recommended systems, but are not required. I think it's useful to know the Perl requirements for people that want to install Koha on other systems.
«recommended systems, but are not required» Indeed, they should be recommendations because we actively test them. But not requirements since we don't test enough other systems to tell that they won't work. Actually they have a good chances of working IIUC (though with a lot of work). (David Cook correct me if I'm wrong) «useful to know the Perl requirements» Yes, it's important because in these cases we **can tell** that Koha won't work. Which is different from "we don't officially support and actively test on". So for system components in general we would have 3 categories. 4 if want to split one but that should not matter much here. - recommended/official: systems actively tested on (though we still run CI on some older components and they pass even if not recommended) - shouldn't work: too low Perl/DBMS version to support some of our code - things in-between that should work without much work(if any) or issues: MySQL 5, Debian 8 because depending on the Koha version they were recommended not a long time ago. The CI even passes on them depending on the Koha version. I guess components advertised as experimental would be here? MariaDB 10.3 on Koha 19.05.x and MySQL 8 - things in-between that should work with potentially a lot of work: CentOS, OpenSUSE Does that model looks accurate? - On 20-06-24 12:42, Tomas Cohen Arazi wrote:
I agree we should raise the minimum version to 5.14 in that case.
Is there any known feature that would make one of our supported Koha versions not working on Perl 5.14? On 20-06-26 01:31, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
I wonder if there is a reliable list of features by Perl version without reading through every delta listed at https://perldoc.perl.org/index-history.html. There is something at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_5_version_history.
+ similar work for Perl dependencies 😱 An easier approach would be to ask everyone (koha-devel only or also the general koha list?) What is the oldest systems components they installed a supported version of Koha on. Then we will see which is the lowest version of Perl & OS & DBMS that people have a chance to encounter on a server when installing or upgrading Koha. (and at what cost did it work) That's the info that matters right? Also we could use Hea. Current step is Bug 23914 - Hea - share the DBMS (name and version) https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23914 - On 20-06-24 18:40, Mark Tompsett wrote:
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but do we support Xenial (Ubuntu 16.04) still?
Nor recommended nor advertised as supported from what I see. But in the CI it's enabled and successful on master and 20.05 - On 20-06-24 19:15, Julian Maurice wrote:
In the latest release notes: [...] - 19.05.12 says the the recommended environements are Debian stretch or Ubuntu bionic, and requires Perl 5.24 (it's strange that an older version of Koha require a newer version of Perl)
That was me due to being confused that came up with a bit to simplistic logic: «We only have automated tests passing for Debian 9 and Ubuntu 18.04. So we only demonstrated Koha 19.05.12 working with Perl 5.24 and 5.26. So that's the requierements» But that's squashing "recommended" and "required" together. The previously mentioned 3 or 4 categories are better. I'm fixing the release notes of 19.05.12 with the following: «Perl >= 5.14 is required and 5.24 or 5.26 are recommended» (not sure about what to do with the 19.05.12 release notes in the Koha source code though) - On 20-06-25 00:59, Paul A wrote:
On 2020-06-24 1:15 p.m., Julian Maurice wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot about Xenial. Not sure if it is still supported.
Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS (Xenial Xerus) was released February 28, 2019, has an "End of Standard Support" set at April 2021, and "End of Life" of April 2024 -- where some package enhancements are ensured up to the first of those dates, and *security* is ensured until the second, i.e nearly another four years from now.
It's supported by Ubuntu publicly until April 2021. And for their customers another 3 year via ESM (extended security maintenance). That doesn't mean Koha should recommend or even keep continuously testing on Ubuntu 16.04 until the ESM EOL or even the public EOL. IMHO it's a balance between the resources that Koha community members can provide for the additional human and (to a way lesser extend) machine resources needed to watch out for and fix regressions. VS The benefits of upping the Perl or Perl dependencies or DBMS requirements to use new features or drop ugly workarounds for bugs. (note: I don't think we should consider stopping continuously testing on Ubuntu 16.04, it was an example.) - On 20-06-26 12:30, Julian Maurice wrote:
I added the topic to next dev meeting agenda
Thanks Julian :) -- Victor Grousset/tuxayo
+1 for perl 5.14 as a minimum i think we should consider supporting older systems outside of debian, if possible On 24/06/20 10:42 pm, Tomas Cohen Arazi wrote:
I agree we should raise the minimum version to 5.14 in that case. I think we raised to version 5.10 when we started using the defined-or (//) operator.
El mié., 24 jun. 2020 a las 4:46, Julian Maurice (<julian.maurice@biblibre.com <mailto:julian.maurice@biblibre.com>>) escribió:
Hi,
While reading the release notes for 20.05.01 I noticed that the minimum Perl version required is still 5.10. However, we use the '/r' regex modifier which was introduced in 5.14. There may be other features that we use that are not in Perl 5.10. Considering that even debian oldstable has Perl 5.24, it should be safe to raise the minimum required version to 5.24. What do you think ?
-- Julian Maurice BibLibre _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io <http://theke.io/>) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : http://www.koha-community.org/ git : http://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
participants (10)
-
dcook＠prosentient.com.au -
Fridolin SOMERS -
Julian Maurice -
Kyle Hall -
Mark Tompsett -
Mason James -
Paul A -
Renvoize, Martin -
Tomas Cohen Arazi -
Victor Grousset/tuxayo