Where did you see that quote, Jonathan? Here’s the relevant two lines I’m seeing: 1. “Not seeking profit: Your organization must not seek to make a profit through services or by charging for higher tiers. Accepting donations to sustain your efforts is ok. Read more about this requirement here.” 2. “Not seek profit: An organization can accept donations to sustain its work, but it can’t seek to make a profit by selling services, by charging for enhancements or add-ons, or by other means." In theory, the organisation should be the Koha Community so it might be OK, since it doesn't sell services. That's in contrast to Duraspace/Lyrasis which is the non-profit company that develops DSpace and hosts a lot of its infrastructure; they sell DSpace services. I suppose though only Gitlab can ultimately make that call though? -- That said, overall, I don't know that we need to apply to the Gitlab for Open Source Program though? It might have some benefits but it might be relying too much on a third-party that can change its services on a whim? David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Thursday, 26 May 2022 8:33 AM To: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> Cc: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes I had a look at it a couple of months ago but at some point you have to "certify that project maintainer are not seeking profit from this project by, for example, selling services"... Le mer. 25 mai 2022 à 17:51, Tomas Cohen Arazi <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com> a écrit : Hi, we need to take a look at the upcoming changes and make a decision on enrolling as an Open Source project: https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2022/02/04/ultimate-perks-for-open-source-proj... Please read carefully so we can make a decision eventually. -- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io/) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

I believe that The Horowhenua Library Trust as the non-profit behind koha-community.org and trustees of the koha codebase would qualify to enroll as an open-source organization. -Doug- On Wed, May 25, 2022 at 5:06 PM Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> wrote:

Most limitations are about workers quotas. We can still rely on their services and run our own workers? It feels we should try enrolling as an open source organization, it at least see where the process takes us.

Worth hearing all opinions!

El mié, 25 may 2022 20:55, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> escribió:

...

Where did you see that quote, Jonathan?

Here’s the relevant two lines I’m seeing: 1. “Not seeking profit: Your organization must not seek to make a profit through services or by charging for higher tiers. Accepting donations to sustain your efforts is ok. Read more about this requirement here.” 2. “Not seek profit: An organization can accept donations to sustain its work, but it can’t seek to make a profit by selling services, by charging for enhancements or add-ons, or by other means."

In theory, the organisation should be the Koha Community so it might be OK, since it doesn't sell services. That's in contrast to Duraspace/Lyrasis which is the non-profit company that develops DSpace and hosts a lot of its infrastructure; they sell DSpace services. I suppose though only Gitlab can ultimately make that call though?

--

That said, overall, I don't know that we need to apply to the Gitlab for Open Source Program though? It might have some benefits but it might be relying too much on a third-party that can change its services on a whim?

David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia

Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595

From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Thursday, 26 May 2022 8:33 AM To: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> Cc: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes

I had a look at it a couple of months ago but at some point you have to "certify that project maintainer are not seeking profit from this project by, for example, selling services"... Le mer. 25 mai 2022 à 17:51, Tomas Cohen Arazi <mailto: tomascohen@gmail.com> a écrit : Hi, we need to take a look at the upcoming changes and make a decision on enrolling as an Open Source project:

https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2022/02/04/ultimate-perks-for-open-source-proj...

Please read carefully so we can make a decision eventually.

-- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io/) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

Sounds like a plan. No opposition from me. David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Tomas Cohen Arazi Sent: Thursday, 26 May 2022 10:06 AM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes Most limitations are about workers quotas. We can still rely on their services and run our own workers? It feels we should try enrolling as an open source organization, it at least see where the process takes us. Worth hearing all opinions! El mié, 25 may 2022 20:55, <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> > escribió: Where did you see that quote, Jonathan? Here’s the relevant two lines I’m seeing: 1. “Not seeking profit: Your organization must not seek to make a profit through services or by charging for higher tiers. Accepting donations to sustain your efforts is ok. Read more about this requirement here.” 2. “Not seek profit: An organization can accept donations to sustain its work, but it can’t seek to make a profit by selling services, by charging for enhancements or add-ons, or by other means." In theory, the organisation should be the Koha Community so it might be OK, since it doesn't sell services. That's in contrast to Duraspace/Lyrasis which is the non-profit company that develops DSpace and hosts a lot of its infrastructure; they sell DSpace services. I suppose though only Gitlab can ultimately make that call though? -- That said, overall, I don't know that we need to apply to the Gitlab for Open Source Program though? It might have some benefits but it might be relying too much on a third-party that can change its services on a whim? David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Thursday, 26 May 2022 8:33 AM To: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com> > Cc: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes I had a look at it a couple of months ago but at some point you have to "certify that project maintainer are not seeking profit from this project by, for example, selling services"... Le mer. 25 mai 2022 à 17:51, Tomas Cohen Arazi <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com <mailto:tomascohen@gmail.com> > a écrit : Hi, we need to take a look at the upcoming changes and make a decision on enrolling as an Open Source project: https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2022/02/04/ultimate-perks-for-open-source-proj... Please read carefully so we can make a decision eventually. -- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io/) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

On 22-05-26 01:55, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:

In theory, the organisation should be the Koha Community so it might be OK, since it doesn't sell services.

In practice we would be trying to scam GitLab.com If we look at https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roles_for_22.11 and count for Release Manager, QA team, RMaints, Packaging Team, Translation Manager. We have around 17 people and between 11 and 12 are working or subcontracting for private support companies. (Assuming they are all for profit because unfortunately, almost no one does non profit companies even though that totally works to make a living out of one's business.) We might not have remorse in trying to scam a publicly traded company but we should be aware among ourselves that's the plan. On 22-05-26 12:39, Jonathan Druart wrote:

There is a checkbox on the form That's the only reason I haven't filled in the form already, it's not clear to me if we are eligible or not.

Reading the checkbox, it looks clear that no matter how we want to define maintainers. There are way too much in proportion that are seeking to make a profit that we can't in good faith try to negotiate that we still fit the criteria. We can still try and be upfront and present the project and hope that they want to support it. Or try to scam them without remorse because why not. It's not like GitLab is very respectable since they are publicly traded and the full version of GitLab include proprietary parts. And self-host the workers if that fails. Cheers, -- Victor Grousset/tuxayo

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't really know what to say. As I was involved earlier in the discussion I feel that by not replying, I am agreeing with your message, Victor. However I do not agree at all. I do not recognize myself in your words and I do not think "scamming gitlab" is a point of the discussion. The matter is to know if we are eligible for a program they support, and find the best way to apply in agreement with their terms and our project's view. We are relying quite a lot on gitlab, and I personally think the open source product they provide is great. I thank their team for that. With this answer, I only wanted to take distance with your words. Cheers, Jonathan Le ven. 10 juin 2022 à 22:42, Victor Grousset/tuxayo <victor@tuxayo.net> a écrit :

On 22-05-26 01:55, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:

...

In theory, the organisation should be the Koha Community so it might be OK, since it doesn't sell services.

In practice we would be trying to scam GitLab.com If we look at https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roles_for_22.11 and count for Release Manager, QA team, RMaints, Packaging Team, Translation Manager. We have around 17 people and between 11 and 12 are working or subcontracting for private support companies. (Assuming they are all for profit because unfortunately, almost no one does non profit companies even though that totally works to make a living out of one's business.)

We might not have remorse in trying to scam a publicly traded company but we should be aware among ourselves that's the plan.

On 22-05-26 12:39, Jonathan Druart wrote:

...

There is a checkbox on the form That's the only reason I haven't filled in the form already, it's not clear to me if we are eligible or not.

Reading the checkbox, it looks clear that no matter how we want to define maintainers. There are way too much in proportion that are seeking to make a profit that we can't in good faith try to negotiate that we still fit the criteria.

We can still try and be upfront and present the project and hope that they want to support it.

Or try to scam them without remorse because why not. It's not like GitLab is very respectable since they are publicly traded and the full version of GitLab include proprietary parts.

And self-host the workers if that fails.

Cheers,

-- Victor Grousset/tuxayo

Thanks for your message, Jonathan. I didn't know what to say either, so I've procrastinated my reply. Victor, I'm not going to try to respond line by line to your message, but I will say that everyone (myself included) has just been genuinely trying to interpret Gitlab's policy and how it applies to Koha; no one is trying to mislead anyone. The Koha community is the most good natured group of people that I've ever known in my entire life. I have some personal contacts at Gitlab, so I may end up asking if they can provide some clarification. I thought that I'd let the Koha community decide what it wanted to do, and first try official Gitlab communication channels, so that I did not bother my Gitlab friends unnecessarily. Anyway, I think that Tomas is going to try reaching out to Gitlab for more information, so we'll see what they say. Ultimately, we can speculate one way or another all we want, but it's up to Gitlab to say whether or not we fit, and I think that you can rest assured that we'll be open and honest with whatever information that they want to support their decision-making. David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Victor Grousset/tuxayo Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 2:24 AM To: Jonathan Druart <jonathan.druart@bugs.koha-community.org> Cc: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes On 22-06-28 10:23, Jonathan Druart wrote:

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't really know what to say. As I was involved earlier in the discussion I feel that by not replying, I am agreeing with your message, Victor.

No worries, I think no one in the discussion was to be assumed to agree with the idea that it would be a scam attempt to apply as is for the non-profit program. Because for that someone must agree that we do not fit at all with the non profit criteria for maintainers. That's the main point of the message and necessary condition before starting to talk about the scam thing. And it seems everyone leans towards that we fit. So if anything to assume, is that everyone was leaning towards agreeing to apply in good faith without being a attempt to trick GitLab, thinking that we fit enough in the criteria.

However I do not agree at all. I do not recognize myself in your words

That's fine, it's my own view that we don't fit and the arguments to apply anyway with less moral remorse are only mine.

and I do not think "scamming gitlab" is a point of the discussion. The matter is to know if we are eligible for a program they support, and find the best way to apply in agreement with their terms and our project's view.

Alright, looks good that way, I had to think hard to find moral justifications to apply as is without complying to their terms. (Assuming we would lean toward that we don't fit at all with their terms.) My feelings when reading the discussion were that bringing up Koha Community as an organization or Horowhenua Library Trust was very dubious and that we should be upfront that it would be a dubious application to their program. Thus the scam thing.

We are relying quite a lot on gitlab, and I personally think the open source product they provide is great. I thank their team for that.

With this answer, I only wanted to take distance with your words.

What about the main point of the message? My most important words are that we don't fit at all with their terms. (details in previous message) Sorry that I went too far developing the scam thing that it took all the attention. Cheers, -- Victor Grousset/tuxayo _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

Victor, it's clear that we do not see eye to eye on this topic, and I don't think that is going to change with further discussion. Let's see what Gitlab says. David Cook Senior Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Victor Grousset/tuxayo <victor@tuxayo.net> Sent: Thursday, 30 June 2022 4:25 AM To: dcook@prosentient.com.au Cc: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Gitlab policy changes On 22-06-29 04:00, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:

[...] Victor, I'm not going to try to respond line by line to your message,

No worries, what about the main point of my 1st message? That we don't fit at all with their terms when looking at our roles list no matter how we define maintainers.

but I will say that everyone (myself included) has just been genuinely trying to interpret Gitlab's policy and how it applies to Koha; no one is trying to mislead anyone. The Koha community is the most good natured group of people that I've ever known in my entire life.

Sorry that I have made many people uncomfortable. When I said «In practice we would be trying to scam GitLab.com» it was in «You don't realize it but it's misleading». Not «You are consciously and malevolently thinking to mislead them»

[...]

Anyway, I think that Tomas is going to try reaching out to Gitlab for more information, so we'll see what they say. Ultimately, we can speculate one way or another all we want, but it's up to Gitlab to say whether or not we fit, and I think that you can rest assured that we'll be open and honest with whatever information that they want to support their decision-making.

Bringing up HLT or Koha Community as non profit organization to be able to tick the box «project maintainers are not seeking to make profit from this project by for example, selling services [...]» didn't look like «you can rest assured that we'll be open and honest with whatever information that they want to support their decision-making» Instead I though we gotta be upfront with ourselves if we were going that way which seemed misleading to me. (to bend so much things so they fit) And that we needed to find reasons to be morally ok with that. Cheers, -- Victor Grousset/tuxayo

Hi all, I have submitted the form, and also contacted the sales department so we can explain how the project management works and to clarify any doubts. I will add others to the conversation once I get the call with the sales people. Thanks everyone. El mié, 29 jun 2022 a las 0:37, Victor Grousset/tuxayo (<victor@tuxayo.net>) escribió:

On 22-06-28 10:23, Jonathan Druart wrote:

...

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't really know what to say. As I was involved earlier in the discussion I feel that by not replying, I am agreeing with your message, Victor.

No worries, I think no one in the discussion was to be assumed to agree with the idea that it would be a scam attempt to apply as is for the non-profit program. Because for that someone must agree that we do not fit at all with the non profit criteria for maintainers. That's the main point of the message and necessary condition before starting to talk about the scam thing. And it seems everyone leans towards that we fit. So if anything to assume, is that everyone was leaning towards agreeing to apply in good faith without being a attempt to trick GitLab, thinking that we fit enough in the criteria.

...

However I do not agree at all. I do not recognize myself in your words

That's fine, it's my own view that we don't fit and the arguments to apply anyway with less moral remorse are only mine.

...

and I do not think "scamming gitlab" is a point of the discussion. The matter is to know if we are eligible for a program they support, and find the best way to apply in agreement with their terms and our project's view.

Alright, looks good that way, I had to think hard to find moral justifications to apply as is without complying to their terms. (Assuming we would lean toward that we don't fit at all with their terms.) My feelings when reading the discussion were that bringing up Koha Community as an organization or Horowhenua Library Trust was very dubious and that we should be upfront that it would be a dubious application to their program. Thus the scam thing.

...

We are relying quite a lot on gitlab, and I personally think the open source product they provide is great. I thank their team for that.

With this answer, I only wanted to take distance with your words.

What about the main point of the message? My most important words are that we don't fit at all with their terms. (details in previous message) Sorry that I went too far developing the scam thing that it took all the attention.

Cheers,

-- Victor Grousset/tuxayo _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/

-- Tomás Cohen Arazi Theke Solutions (http://theke.io) ✆ +54 9351 3513384 GPG: B2F3C15F