Elasticsearch changing licences
Hi all, Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence? Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of. https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
Ḧi, yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr? Joonas On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Hi as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES Completly different is if Koha wish to use onlye GPL license software Hugo Agud - Orex Digital www.orex.es<http://www.orex.es> [https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/C-agH5ES4uFINyKtzS6Vi0eMPO5THtLduFonhbPGSFBw-Hl4FqD7pq9pXIfM4-zBQpKtrSNJt1bqk0u1PkuVV0aDZSALfIMcn9-CQtIPviXf83f3yIIQqHHKufG7J-TNtHxrjAS-I9kTXmF5DFD1t1_7-wvS=s0-d-e1-ft#http://www.orex.es/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Captura-de-pantalla-2016-08-04-a-las-11.21.49.png]<http://www.orex.es/> [www.orex.es/koha] <http://www.orex.es/koha> [www.orex.es/vufind] <http://www.orex.es/vufind> [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/C6hOrdX9x-GTwsYAkhaZuvnN1nu86gksJE_a...] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/YZRfjNcbmWALitdE6EGrlrGhllub8TL_6V60...] Director Passeig Comte Vilardaga, 118 3-3 08980 -Sant Feliu de Llobregat - Tel: 933 856 138 hagud@orex.es<mailto:hagud@orex.es> · http://www.orex.es/ No imprima este mensaje a no ser que sea necesario. Una tonelada de papel implica la tala de 15 árboles y el consumo de 250.000 litros de agua. Aviso de confidencialidad Este mensaje y sus archivos adjuntos van dirigidos exclusivamente a su destinatario, pudiendo contener información confidencial sometida a secreto profesional. No está permitida su reproducción o distribución sin la autorización expresa de Orex Digital, S.L. Si usted no es el destinatario final por favor elimínelo e infórmenos por esta vía. En cumplimiento de lo establecido en el Reglamento General de Protección de Datos (RGPD) (UE) 2016/679 y a la Ley Orgánica 3/2018, de 5 de diciembre, de Protección de Datos de Carácter Personal y Garantía de los Derechos Digitales (LOPD-GDD), le informamos que tratamos sus datos personales con la finalidad de responder a su solicitud de información, realizar la gestión administrativa derivada de nuestra relación comercial o contractual, así como enviarle comunicaciones comerciales sobre nuestros productos y servicios. La legitimación será en base a un interés legítimo, por ejecución de un contrato y/o por consentimiento, en algunos casos. Los datos proporcionados se conservarán mientras se mantenga la relación contractual o durante los años necesarios para cumplir con las obligaciones legales. Los datos no se cederán a terceros salvo en los casos en que exista una obligación legal o sea necesario para la ejecución de un contrato. No se tomarán decisiones automatizadas que puedan causar un efecto jurídico significativo, salvo que se haya recabado previamente el consentimiento. Asimismo, le informamos de la posibilidad de ejercer los siguientes derechos sobre sus datos personales: derecho de acceso, rectificación, supresión u olvido, limitación, oposición, portabilidad y a retirar el consentimiento prestado. Para ello podrá enviar un email a: info@orex.es, adjuntando copia de su DNI. Además, el interesado puede dirigirse a la Autoridad de Control en materia de Protección de Datos competente (AEPD, en España) para obtener información adicional o presentar una reclamación. Datos identificativos: Orex Digital, S.L., B64500945, Paseo Conde de Vilardaga 118, 3-3 - 08980 - Sant Feliu de Llobregat - BARCELONA, 933856138 ________________________________ De: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> en nombre de Joonas Kylmälä <joonas.kylmala@helsinki.fi> Enviado: viernes, 15 de enero de 2021 11:07 Para: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Asunto: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Ḧi, yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr? Joonas On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
Hi! On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kibana-are... I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES. Greetings, domm -- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/}
Thanks Thomas, great article. It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same. The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """ That's crazy! Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kibana-are...
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting. Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service: """ Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """ Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good. If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/. But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days. I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company. No idea. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Thanks Thomas, great article. It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same. The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """ That's crazy! Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kiba na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code. Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages. So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License. So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code. Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting. Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service: """ Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """ Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good. If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/. But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days. I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company. No idea. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Thanks Thomas, great article. It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same. The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """ That's crazy! Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kiba na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
Hi to all, I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/blob/master/licenses/ELASTIC-LICENS... I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/31656#issuecomment-761296521). I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS. Cheers Zeno Tajoli Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au ha scritto:
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kiba na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Zeno Tajoli System Librarian
Hi Zeno, Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well. However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://www.elastic.co/blog/licensing-change appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times). I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Hi to all, I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/blob/master/licenses/ELASTIC-LICENS... I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/31656#issuecomment-761296521). I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS. Cheers Zeno Tajoli Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au ha scritto:
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kib a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
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-- Zeno Tajoli System Librarian _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
'Just' for vendors hehe. El lun., 18 ene. 2021 19:41, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> escribió:
Hi Zeno,
Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well.
However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://www.elastic.co/blog/licensing-change appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times).
I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Hi to all,
I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/blob/master/licenses/ELASTIC-LICENS...
I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento ( https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/31656#issuecomment-761296521).
I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS.
Cheers Zeno Tajoli
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic
Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au ha scritto: licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links:
https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll
probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is
actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but
proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the
first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a
very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to
"""
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling
third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic
perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 ( https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that
actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life
of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license,
they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version
[...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or
available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available.
"""
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kib a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
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-- Zeno Tajoli System Librarian _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
What do you mean, Tomas? I don’t think (Koha) vendors have anything to worry about either? David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Tomas Cohen Arazi <tomascohen@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:52 AM To: David Cook <dcook@prosentient.com.au> Cc: Zeno Tajoli <ztajoli@gmail.com>; koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences 'Just' for vendors hehe. El lun., 18 ene. 2021 19:41, <dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> > escribió: Hi Zeno, Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well. However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://www.elastic.co/blog/licensing-change appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times). I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Hi to all, I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/blob/master/licenses/ELASTIC-LICENS... I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/31656#issuecomment-761296521). I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS. Cheers Zeno Tajoli Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> ha scritto:
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at <mailto:domm@plix.at> > a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES
I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kib a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
-- #!/usr/bin/perl http://domm.plix.at for(ref bless{},just'another'perl'hacker){s-:+-$"-g&&print$_.$/} _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
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-- Zeno Tajoli System Librarian _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/ _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
Hello all, in the blog Entry, I read : "The SSPL allows free and unrestricted use and modification, with the simple requirement that if you provide the product as a service to others, you must also publicly release any modifications as well as the source code of your management layers under SSPL. " We are under "you provide the product as a service" so "we must publicly release any modification". But... ... we don't do any modification. Conclusion: there's no impact for us with this license change. I'm like David : I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about too. Le 18/01/2021 à 23:41, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Hi Zeno,
Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well.
However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://www.elastic.co/blog/licensing-change appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times).
I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Hi to all,
I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/blob/master/licenses/ELASTIC-LICENS...
I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://github.com/magento/magento2/issues/31656#issuecomment-761296521).
I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS.
Cheers Zeno Tajoli
Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au ha scritto:
After reading https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Elasticsearch#Install_elasticsearch, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch and https://www.elastic.co/downloads/elasticsearch-oss. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatib...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://redislabs.com/legal/licenses/.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/20/dont-chase-growth-.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2021/01/14/elasticsearch-and-kib a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
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Den 19.01.2021 10:09, skrev Paul Poulain:
Hello all,
in the blog Entry, I read : "The SSPL allows free and unrestricted use and modification, with the simple requirement that if you provide the product as a service to others, you must also publicly release any modifications as well as the source code of your management layers under SSPL. "
Could Koha be considered to be a "management layer"? Best regards, Magnus
Would read the same, Paul. But a Koha supporting company might have such management layers (deployment stuff) that they should publish according to the license ? ________________________________ X X! T/m 18 jaar gratis In verband met de coronamaatregelen is het boeken van een starttijd noodzakelijk. Kijk hier de nieuwste aflevering van Rijksmuseum Unlocked x! xxx Please think before you print Van: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> namens Paul Poulain <paul.poulain@biblibre.com> Verzonden: dinsdag 19 januari 2021 10:09 Aan: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Onderwerp: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Hello all, in the blog Entry, I read : "The SSPL allows free and unrestricted use and modification, with the simple requirement that if you provide the product as a service to others, you must also publicly release any modifications as well as the source code of your management layers under SSPL. " We are under "you provide the product as a service" so "we must publicly release any modification". But... ... we don't do any modification. Conclusion: there's no impact for us with this license change. I'm like David : I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about too. Le 18/01/2021 à 23:41, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Hi Zeno,
Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well.
However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti... appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times).
I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Hi to all,
I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com...
I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com...).
I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS.
Cheers Zeno Tajoli
Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au ha scritto:
After reading https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.koha-..., it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti... and https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti.... Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faws.amazon...). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredislabs.....
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.... Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at> a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanonymoush... a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
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After further review, it’s not relevant for Koha, since we’re not providing Elasticsearch (ie we’re not building Elasticsearch from source and distributing it). As I noted in a different email, Koha libraries (and support companies) that use Elasticsearch are most likely using the pre-compiled release which is licensed with the Elastic license which allows free usage. koha-testing-docker already uses an Elasticsearch container which uses the Elastic license. The following 2 points are what the broader open source world is worried about: *If* a Koha support company took Elasticsearch source code, modified it, and used it locally for their own customers, they would probably be OK with SSPL (but not Elastic License), since they’re not offering Elasticsearch directly as a product to consumers, although the wording is vague enough for it to be a bit scary. *If* a Koha support company took Elasticsearch source code, modified it, and sold it as CompanyX Elasticsearch (at least as a service…), they would not be OK (under either SSPL or Elastic License). Based on the following Elastic blog posts, it seems like this isn’t the end of licensing changes either, as they are trying to balance commitment to open source and the thriving of their own business. https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-AWS https://www.elastic.co/blog/license-change-clarification I’ll stop writing now as I know that’s a fair amount of text heh. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Marcel de Rooy Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 11:13 PM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Would read the same, Paul. But a Koha supporting company might have such management layers (deployment stuff) that they should publish according to the license ? <https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/steun/vriendschappen> X X! <https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/> T/m 18 jaar gratis <https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/tickets/artikelen> In verband met de coronamaatregelen is het boeken van een starttijd noodzakelijk. Kijk <https://youtu.be/OI_uT2o7bqc> hier de nieuwste aflevering van Rijksmuseum Unlocked x! <https://www.instagram.com/rijksmuseum/> x <https://www.facebook.com/rijksmuseum> x <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rijksmuseum/> x <https://twitter.com/rijksmuseum> Please think before you print _____ Van: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > namens Paul Poulain <paul.poulain@biblibre.com <mailto:paul.poulain@biblibre.com> > Verzonden: dinsdag 19 januari 2021 10:09 Aan: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Onderwerp: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Hello all, in the blog Entry, I read : "The SSPL allows free and unrestricted use and modification, with the simple requirement that if you provide the product as a service to others, you must also publicly release any modifications as well as the source code of your management layers under SSPL. " We are under "you provide the product as a service" so "we must publicly release any modification". But... ... we don't do any modification. Conclusion: there's no impact for us with this license change. I'm like David : I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about too. Le 18/01/2021 à 23:41, dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> a écrit :
Hi Zeno,
Thanks for sharing that Magento comment. That matches my understanding as well.
However, the Koha Community isn't redistributing ES Object Code. There's nothing stopping Koha implementations from using Elastic Cloud or any other Elasticsearch offering. So what Shay Banon says in https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elastic.co%2Fblog%2Flicensing-change&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093801490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=nyBnb2rojA7zHaNCXFgC7L%2F2naL9LD5b899tJ059tss%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093801490%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=nyBnb2rojA7zHaNCXFgC7L%2F2naL9LD5b899tJ059tss%3D&reserved=0 appears to be accurate (albeit not very clearly worded at times).
I don't think there's anything for Koha to worry about here.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Zeno Tajoli Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 9:03 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Hi to all,
I confirm the wrinting of David Cook. In my Koha (with ElasticSearch)n installation ES is with present with Elastic-License, https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Felastic%2Felasticsearch%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Flicenses%2FELASTIC-LICENSE.txt&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=pctX%2BBy44ZRqsHMnsUhavgoHQYYjwMmcJi8aehlhjpU%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=pctX%2BBy44ZRqsHMnsUhavgoHQYYjwMmcJi8aehlhjpU%3D&reserved=0
I think the situation is not clear and ambigus. In theory we are a situation like Magento (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmagento%2Fmagento2%2Fissues%2F31656%23issuecomment-761296521&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=4rSNIV9vXG%2F6ijoxbanRepv6iRyUQPJn%2F8dCY5gieJY%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=4rSNIV9vXG%2F6ijoxbanRepv6iRyUQPJn%2F8dCY5gieJY%3D&reserved=0).
I think we can ask (as Koha Comunity) a license to redistribute ES Object Code and same legal piece of paper that covers not only end-user (libraries) but also firms that sell support, hosting an installation of Koha. In fact as SasS.
Cheers Zeno Tajoli
Il 18/01/2021 06:06, dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> ha scritto:
After reading https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.koha-... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.koha-community.org%2Fwiki%2FElasticsearch%23Install_elasticsearch&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=G%2FSqsZZ48C3I5vQ0IB2stsdV5SOX9MgutaHgkniP9EQ%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=G%2FSqsZZ48C3I5vQ0IB2stsdV5SOX9MgutaHgkniP9EQ%3D&reserved=0, it looks like the Koha community is actually already using the "Elastic licence" since we're installing the compiled "binary" Elasticsearch rather than building our own Elasticsearch from the previously Apache 2.0 licenced Java source code.
Interesting that Elastic provides two download links: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elastic.co%2Fdownloads%2Felasticsearch&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hQmxRvVMT54T%2F99Gq7QRxhXxHlgJDNGlicIK7%2FWQA9U%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hQmxRvVMT54T%2F99Gq7QRxhXxHlgJDNGlicIK7%2FWQA9U%3D&reserved=0 and https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elasti... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.elastic.co%2Fdownloads%2Felasticsearch-oss&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=mgncCtW%2B1TtzrETvxu8dqrytiiG04fLfalg52KTU4%2Bw%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=mgncCtW%2B1TtzrETvxu8dqrytiiG04fLfalg52KTU4%2Bw%3D&reserved=0. Yet, the package manager instructions are the same for both, while the direct DEB downloads in both appear to be for different packages.
So if you look at... /usr/share/doc/elasticsearch/copyright, you'll probably find the Elastic License.
So... technically speaking the replacement of Apache 2.0 with SSPL is actually probably irrelevant for us since we're not modifying or building the source code. We're just using the compiled Java object/byte code.
Of course, that means our use of Elasticsearch has been with a free but proprietary licence. This SSPL change really just shines a light on the licensing for us then.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> Sent: Monday, 18 January 2021 11:47 AM To: 'koha-devel' <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
That's interesting that you know Vicky, Thomas. That was actually the first article I read before posting to this listserv. It was interesting.
Thanks for that excerpt, Jonathan, although I think you have omitted a very important part where they define a service:
""" Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network, offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version, or offering a service that accomplishes for users the primary purpose of the Program or modified version. """
Personally, I find the definition from 1.3 to be vague as "enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version remotely through a computer network" or "offering a service the value of which entirely or primarily derives from the value of the Program or modified version" could really be interpreted a variety of ways. Not good.
If you read "1.3 Offering the Program as a Service" from the Elastic perspective, that text makes some sense. They're trying to prevent AWS (and other cloud providers) from providing Elasticsearch as a managed service, as they think that the competition directly impacts their own managed service business. MongoDB created the SSPL licence and started using it in October 2018. Of course, it seems that Amazon just forked the last AGPL version of MongoDB to create Amazon DocumentDB in January 2019 (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faws.amazon... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faws.amazon.com%2Fblogs%2Faws%2Fnew-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatibility-fast-scalable-and-highly-available%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hf%2BgGZAeD%2FGPvYvtUFkX7lLR4Yv8lKRuPM2K82jjCoo%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hf%2BgGZAeD%2FGPvYvtUFkX7lLR4Yv8lKRuPM2K82jjCoo%3D&reserved=0). Redis also changed some of its licensing a while ago: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredislabs.... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredislabs.com%2Flegal%2Flicenses%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=IKYLZmG2Ay1iW4xtHhFAEGe9uJbWdKjr6kxmIiEVRuQ%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=IKYLZmG2Ay1iW4xtHhFAEGe9uJbWdKjr6kxmIiEVRuQ%3D&reserved=0.
But, at this point, I don't think there have been any legal cases that actually test the SSPL. But it's still early days.
I suppose when considering products, we might want to consider the life of the product too. Here is a critical article on MongoDB's finances: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fgreatspeculations%2F2020%2F07%2F20%2Fdont-chase-growth-with-mongodb%2F%3Fsh%3D568631c64ef3&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=WTHfiybJUJHUGa%2BQLIF9lIVuEgYBWmpPxmDPm%2F4TjnE%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=WTHfiybJUJHUGa%2BQLIF9lIVuEgYBWmpPxmDPm%2F4TjnE%3D&reserved=0. Perhaps the licence change won't be enough and they'll eventually be bought by a larger tech company.
No idea.
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> > On Behalf Of Jonathan Druart Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 10:22 PM To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> > Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Thanks Thomas, great article.
It's what I thought this morning when I read their FAQ and the license, they don't mean the same.
The license clearly states: """ If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License. [...] “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available. """
That's crazy!
Le ven. 15 janv. 2021 à 11:47, Thomas Klausner <domm@plix.at <mailto:domm@plix.at> > a écrit :
Hi!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:11:20AM +0000, Hugo Agud Andreu wrote:
as far as I have understood we still could use as ES license is still open, tha changes only affects to those that change the code of ES that they will be forced to publish their own developments, as Koha only uses API and none code modification is done, then no problem with ussing ES I haven't looked into the detail myself, but I know Vicky, and assume that she spend a fair shair of thinking before publishing this: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanonymoush... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com%2F2021%2F01%2F14%2Felasticsearch-and-kib&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=xhJXvaTcHyXM%2BOMGkR%2ByG%2FdjyEW7iLTeHkBST44wjBQ%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093811485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=xhJXvaTcHyXM%2BOMGkR%2ByG%2FdjyEW7iLTeHkBST44wjBQ%3D&reserved=0 a na-are-now-business-risks
I'm using ES in a few projects, so I will have to consider if I just freeze ES at the current version, and/or look for some alternatives in the future. Or maybe they won't go through with the new license? Or maybe it will be clarified how the license actually affects projects just using ES.
Greetings, domm
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-- Zeno Tajoli System Librarian _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.koha... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.koha-community.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fkoha-devel&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=kE9K6putx793vlCB8FzR3XVq2967Zoo4N4HhoTO4PUQ%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=kE9K6putx793vlCB8FzR3XVq2967Zoo4N4HhoTO4PUQ%3D&reserved=0 website : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.koha-c... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Erj7TL8OqqJUwnZvdWOO5y5MprVHA0a%2BKe%2FHoVWQt0Y%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Erj7TL8OqqJUwnZvdWOO5y5MprVHA0a%2BKe%2FHoVWQt0Y%3D&reserved=0 git : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit.koha-c... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=g0H%2FPafEb5dqrK%2Bo1IG%2FXIzhO3eDExL66roiyUFbplE%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=g0H%2FPafEb5dqrK%2Bo1IG%2FXIzhO3eDExL66roiyUFbplE%3D&reserved=0 bugs : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.koha-... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=ay%2BOCA8yrV6w%2BdLKQLIUA%2BD8NHIt%2FBMisef39pV3daw%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=ay%2BOCA8yrV6w%2BdLKQLIUA%2BD8NHIt%2FBMisef39pV3daw%3D&reserved=0
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-- Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org <mailto:Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.koha... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.koha-community.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fkoha-devel&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=kE9K6putx793vlCB8FzR3XVq2967Zoo4N4HhoTO4PUQ%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=kE9K6putx793vlCB8FzR3XVq2967Zoo4N4HhoTO4PUQ%3D&reserved=0 website : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.koha-c... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Erj7TL8OqqJUwnZvdWOO5y5MprVHA0a%2BKe%2FHoVWQt0Y%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Erj7TL8OqqJUwnZvdWOO5y5MprVHA0a%2BKe%2FHoVWQt0Y%3D&reserved=0 git : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit.koha-c... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=g0H%2FPafEb5dqrK%2Bo1IG%2FXIzhO3eDExL66roiyUFbplE%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093831474%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=g0H%2FPafEb5dqrK%2Bo1IG%2FXIzhO3eDExL66roiyUFbplE%3D&reserved=0 bugs : https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.koha-... <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.koha-community.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093841468%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=lZqtKThUtG2WU9LFFFiH2HYaGmNwRlvzsND3jAmcAHw%3D&reserved=0> &data=04%7C01%7Cm.de.rooy%40rijksmuseum.nl%7Cf7d05d915f3d444d1ec808d8bc59e541%7C635b05eb66c748e1a94fb4b05a1b058b%7C0%7C0%7C637466446093841468%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=lZqtKThUtG2WU9LFFFiH2HYaGmNwRlvzsND3jAmcAHw%3D&reserved=0
I wonder that too. In the past, Solr didn't have cluster options, but it seems like it might have SolrCloud now for that? I think it uses Apache ZooKeeper which adds overhead and complexity. Elasticsearch's clustering is a lot more self-contained if I recall correctly. But then clustering would only be needed for more advanced implementations... But Solr is probably the only viable alternative to Elasticsearch at this point? David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Joonas Kylmälä Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 9:07 PM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Ḧi, yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr? Joonas On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
I'd say that you're right in that Solr is the only viable alternative. Which, from my point of view, is actually quite thrilling since I feel much more at home with Solr. That said, I find it just a little bit annoying how often it seems that something that happens outside your core of work forces you to do a lot of extra work. I've yet to encounter an ILS with enough records to need clustering. Our discovery interface uses Solr with a 6-shard SolrCloud instance, but then it's 80+ million records. So I believe this won't be an issue. Solr also support sharding without SolrCloud, but it's still somewhat complex and not automatic like with ES. Though I read somewhere that ES is also moving to default to a single shard. While both are Lucene-based, they're quite different. Or rather, the approaches they take are quite different. ES to me feels more like "make it easy to get started, but beware, there will be obstacles", while Solr is more like "here's what you need to consider before getting started, and it may feel daunting, but you'll be much more informed in the long run". Luckily, I think that with Koha the largest amount of work with ES has been in getting to the point where it's not assuming Zebra everywhere. This would make the task of introducing Solr much more reasonable. --Ere dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 18.1.2021 klo 3.08:
I wonder that too. In the past, Solr didn't have cluster options, but it seems like it might have SolrCloud now for that? I think it uses Apache ZooKeeper which adds overhead and complexity. Elasticsearch's clustering is a lot more self-contained if I recall correctly. But then clustering would only be needed for more advanced implementations...
But Solr is probably the only viable alternative to Elasticsearch at this point?
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Joonas Kylmälä Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 9:07 PM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Ḧi,
yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr?
Joonas
On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
At this point, I don't think that we need to give up on Elasticsearch. After more review and reflection, the licence change doesn't affect the Koha Community, since the Koha Community doesn't modify or redistribute Elasticsearch source code. And all the recommended installation methods have used the compiled Elasticsearch that is licensed with the Elastic License. I've never used SolrCloud, so that's interesting to hear those details! As for clustering, I would say that there are more reasons to cluster than sharding/partitioning like high availability and load balancing. For instance, I maintain a number of clusters that can autoscale up/down based on demand and losing X nodes won't cause my services to fail. In terms of cloud computing, you can typically get 2 smaller instances for the price of 1 larger instance. If the workload can support it, I'd prefer a 2 node cluster to 1 standalone server. But... I would say that is a more advanced configuration. Most libraries probably would only need 1 standalone server and a bit of downtime might not be the end of the world. I imagine that you're right about the largest amount of work with ES has been abstracting the search not to assume Zebra everywhere. In my other projects, I try to keep things modular, as you never know when you're going to have to replace a component with something new... David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Ere Maijala Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 6:27 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences I'd say that you're right in that Solr is the only viable alternative. Which, from my point of view, is actually quite thrilling since I feel much more at home with Solr. That said, I find it just a little bit annoying how often it seems that something that happens outside your core of work forces you to do a lot of extra work. I've yet to encounter an ILS with enough records to need clustering. Our discovery interface uses Solr with a 6-shard SolrCloud instance, but then it's 80+ million records. So I believe this won't be an issue. Solr also support sharding without SolrCloud, but it's still somewhat complex and not automatic like with ES. Though I read somewhere that ES is also moving to default to a single shard. While both are Lucene-based, they're quite different. Or rather, the approaches they take are quite different. ES to me feels more like "make it easy to get started, but beware, there will be obstacles", while Solr is more like "here's what you need to consider before getting started, and it may feel daunting, but you'll be much more informed in the long run". Luckily, I think that with Koha the largest amount of work with ES has been in getting to the point where it's not assuming Zebra everywhere. This would make the task of introducing Solr much more reasonable. --Ere dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 18.1.2021 klo 3.08:
I wonder that too. In the past, Solr didn't have cluster options, but it seems like it might have SolrCloud now for that? I think it uses Apache ZooKeeper which adds overhead and complexity. Elasticsearch's clustering is a lot more self-contained if I recall correctly. But then clustering would only be needed for more advanced implementations...
But Solr is probably the only viable alternative to Elasticsearch at this point?
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Joonas Kylmälä Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 9:07 PM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Ḧi,
yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr?
Joonas
On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
Well, if ES doesn't need to be replaced, adding Solr support would still be an interesting experiment. ;) Indeed there are more reasons for clustering. I was thinking more of the traditional ES default of 5 shards per index. In any case, when you start thinking about HA and LB, there's always some added complexity, and while requiring Zookeeper with Solr is another puzzle piece compared to ES's way, I've found it to be a very small part of the whole deal. And if you want HA, you'll probably want to go for 3 nodes or another odd number to avoid any split brain issues. With Solr you can easily have two beefy nodes running Zookeeper+Solr alongside a smaller one running only Zookeeper. What I've found more of an issue with both ES and Solr is the documentation or lack of it. While most of the time all the API calls, configuration etc. has been documented, the core concepts and why you'd want to use them may not be. Solr's has been improving, but there are still some features that I have trouble understanding properly (e.g. autoscaling stuff). --Ere dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 19.1.2021 klo 0.58:
At this point, I don't think that we need to give up on Elasticsearch. After more review and reflection, the licence change doesn't affect the Koha Community, since the Koha Community doesn't modify or redistribute Elasticsearch source code. And all the recommended installation methods have used the compiled Elasticsearch that is licensed with the Elastic License.
I've never used SolrCloud, so that's interesting to hear those details!
As for clustering, I would say that there are more reasons to cluster than sharding/partitioning like high availability and load balancing. For instance, I maintain a number of clusters that can autoscale up/down based on demand and losing X nodes won't cause my services to fail. In terms of cloud computing, you can typically get 2 smaller instances for the price of 1 larger instance. If the workload can support it, I'd prefer a 2 node cluster to 1 standalone server. But... I would say that is a more advanced configuration. Most libraries probably would only need 1 standalone server and a bit of downtime might not be the end of the world.
I imagine that you're right about the largest amount of work with ES has been abstracting the search not to assume Zebra everywhere. In my other projects, I try to keep things modular, as you never know when you're going to have to replace a component with something new...
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Ere Maijala Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 6:27 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
I'd say that you're right in that Solr is the only viable alternative. Which, from my point of view, is actually quite thrilling since I feel much more at home with Solr. That said, I find it just a little bit annoying how often it seems that something that happens outside your core of work forces you to do a lot of extra work.
I've yet to encounter an ILS with enough records to need clustering. Our discovery interface uses Solr with a 6-shard SolrCloud instance, but then it's 80+ million records. So I believe this won't be an issue. Solr also support sharding without SolrCloud, but it's still somewhat complex and not automatic like with ES. Though I read somewhere that ES is also moving to default to a single shard.
While both are Lucene-based, they're quite different. Or rather, the approaches they take are quite different. ES to me feels more like "make it easy to get started, but beware, there will be obstacles", while Solr is more like "here's what you need to consider before getting started, and it may feel daunting, but you'll be much more informed in the long run".
Luckily, I think that with Koha the largest amount of work with ES has been in getting to the point where it's not assuming Zebra everywhere. This would make the task of introducing Solr much more reasonable.
--Ere
dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 18.1.2021 klo 3.08:
I wonder that too. In the past, Solr didn't have cluster options, but it seems like it might have SolrCloud now for that? I think it uses Apache ZooKeeper which adds overhead and complexity. Elasticsearch's clustering is a lot more self-contained if I recall correctly. But then clustering would only be needed for more advanced implementations...
But Solr is probably the only viable alternative to Elasticsearch at this point?
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Joonas Kylmälä Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 9:07 PM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Ḧi,
yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr?
Joonas
On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
That's true. BibLibre had a go at adding Solr support many years ago but it didn't make it in the community. But Koha is better suited to expanding search functional now. If someone has the time to devote to that experiment, I say go for it! I have a huge shortage of time, unfortunately :/. I hear you on the lack of documentation. I was setting up security on Solr a while ago, and the documentation was pretty frustrating. It was really easy to screw up the security permissions. I got there in the end but not fun. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Ere Maijala <ere.maijala@helsinki.fi> Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 6:46 PM To: dcook@prosentient.com.au; koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Well, if ES doesn't need to be replaced, adding Solr support would still be an interesting experiment. ;) Indeed there are more reasons for clustering. I was thinking more of the traditional ES default of 5 shards per index. In any case, when you start thinking about HA and LB, there's always some added complexity, and while requiring Zookeeper with Solr is another puzzle piece compared to ES's way, I've found it to be a very small part of the whole deal. And if you want HA, you'll probably want to go for 3 nodes or another odd number to avoid any split brain issues. With Solr you can easily have two beefy nodes running Zookeeper+Solr alongside a smaller one running only Zookeeper. What I've found more of an issue with both ES and Solr is the documentation or lack of it. While most of the time all the API calls, configuration etc. has been documented, the core concepts and why you'd want to use them may not be. Solr's has been improving, but there are still some features that I have trouble understanding properly (e.g. autoscaling stuff). --Ere dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 19.1.2021 klo 0.58:
At this point, I don't think that we need to give up on Elasticsearch. After more review and reflection, the licence change doesn't affect the Koha Community, since the Koha Community doesn't modify or redistribute Elasticsearch source code. And all the recommended installation methods have used the compiled Elasticsearch that is licensed with the Elastic License.
I've never used SolrCloud, so that's interesting to hear those details!
As for clustering, I would say that there are more reasons to cluster than sharding/partitioning like high availability and load balancing. For instance, I maintain a number of clusters that can autoscale up/down based on demand and losing X nodes won't cause my services to fail. In terms of cloud computing, you can typically get 2 smaller instances for the price of 1 larger instance. If the workload can support it, I'd prefer a 2 node cluster to 1 standalone server. But... I would say that is a more advanced configuration. Most libraries probably would only need 1 standalone server and a bit of downtime might not be the end of the world.
I imagine that you're right about the largest amount of work with ES has been abstracting the search not to assume Zebra everywhere. In my other projects, I try to keep things modular, as you never know when you're going to have to replace a component with something new...
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Ere Maijala Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2021 6:27 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
I'd say that you're right in that Solr is the only viable alternative. Which, from my point of view, is actually quite thrilling since I feel much more at home with Solr. That said, I find it just a little bit annoying how often it seems that something that happens outside your core of work forces you to do a lot of extra work.
I've yet to encounter an ILS with enough records to need clustering. Our discovery interface uses Solr with a 6-shard SolrCloud instance, but then it's 80+ million records. So I believe this won't be an issue. Solr also support sharding without SolrCloud, but it's still somewhat complex and not automatic like with ES. Though I read somewhere that ES is also moving to default to a single shard.
While both are Lucene-based, they're quite different. Or rather, the approaches they take are quite different. ES to me feels more like "make it easy to get started, but beware, there will be obstacles", while Solr is more like "here's what you need to consider before getting started, and it may feel daunting, but you'll be much more informed in the long run".
Luckily, I think that with Koha the largest amount of work with ES has been in getting to the point where it's not assuming Zebra everywhere. This would make the task of introducing Solr much more reasonable.
--Ere
dcook@prosentient.com.au kirjoitti 18.1.2021 klo 3.08:
I wonder that too. In the past, Solr didn't have cluster options, but it seems like it might have SolrCloud now for that? I think it uses Apache ZooKeeper which adds overhead and complexity. Elasticsearch's clustering is a lot more self-contained if I recall correctly. But then clustering would only be needed for more advanced implementations...
But Solr is probably the only viable alternative to Elasticsearch at this point?
David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595
-----Original Message----- From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Joonas Kylmälä Sent: Friday, 15 January 2021 9:07 PM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Ḧi,
yeah, just heard about this. We might want to start looking into some community developed solution, maybe solr?
Joonas
On 15/01/2021 07:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au wrote:
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Ere Maijala Kansalliskirjasto / The National Library of Finland
Yikes, have you seen : https://opensource.org/node/1099 ? The SSPL is Not an Open Source License :\ Le 15/01/2021 à 06:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
-- Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
Not an OSI approved open source licence at least. I meant to say before that it seems that AWS are (predictably) forking Elasticsearch: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/stepping-up-for-a-truly-open-source-.... It’ll be really interesting to see what happens. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul Poulain Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2021 3:07 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences Yikes, have you seen : https://opensource.org/node/1099 ? The SSPL is Not an Open Source License :\ Le 15/01/2021 à 06:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au <mailto:dcook@prosentient.com.au> a écrit : Hi all, Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence? Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of. https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing -- Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
From elastic's justification it looks as though Amazon already had https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-AWS
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 22:58, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Not an OSI approved open source licence at least.
I meant to say before that it seems that AWS are (predictably) forking Elasticsearch: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/stepping-up-for-a-truly-open-source-....
It’ll be really interesting to see what happens.
David Cook
Software Engineer
Prosentient Systems
Suite 7.03
6a Glen St
Milsons Point NSW 2061
Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899
Online: 02 8005 0595
From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul Poulain Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2021 3:07 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Yikes, have you seen : https://opensource.org/node/1099 ?
The SSPL is Not an Open Source License :\
Le 15/01/2021 à 06:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing
--
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
I think that Shay Banon was exaggerating calling "Open Distro for Elasticsearch" a fork. If you look at https://github.com/opendistro-for-elasticsearch/opendistro-build/blob/master... and https://github.com/opendistro-for-elasticsearch/opendistro-build/blob/master..., you'll see that Amazon downloads the pre-built open source version of Elasticsearch and then adds its own seemingly open source plugins. (I'm guessing the dig by Shay Banon here is implying that these open source plugins were actually copied from the proprietary plugins developed by Elastic.) Amazon refute quite a few of Elastic's claims, but it would take time to double-check them all. Unfortunately the graphics in the following article are missing now: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/aws-contributes-to-elasticsearch-and-cr.... I did have a look through https://github.com/elastic/elasticsearch/graphs/contributors and pretty much every contributor I looked at was from Elastic. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/stepping-up-for-a-truly-open-source-... mentions a number of pull requests from AWS, which appear to be merged, but Github isn't listing stats correctly, so it's tough to easily see. Both sides are self-interested so I am skeptical of what both sides say. Looking through Elasticsearch commits, the vast majority come from the Elastic company. While AWS has resources, I wonder how well they'd be able to compete with Elastic's Elasticsearch. With MongoDB, it sounds like Amazon's fork and MongoDB have diverged a fair amount with the Amazon fork being less good than MongoDB. So I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens with Elasticsearch. David Cook Software Engineer Prosentient Systems Suite 7.03 6a Glen St Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Office: 02 9212 0899 Online: 02 8005 0595 -----Original Message----- From: Campbell, Colin <colin.campbell@ptfs-europe.com> Sent: Wednesday, 27 January 2021 11:03 PM To: dcook@prosentient.com.au Cc: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
From elastic's justification it looks as though Amazon already had https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-AWS
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 22:58, <dcook@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
Not an OSI approved open source licence at least.
I meant to say before that it seems that AWS are (predictably) forking Elasticsearch: https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/stepping-up-for-a-truly-open-source-....
It’ll be really interesting to see what happens.
David Cook
Software Engineer
Prosentient Systems
Suite 7.03
6a Glen St
Milsons Point NSW 2061
Australia
Office: 02 9212 0899
Online: 02 8005 0595
From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul Poulain Sent: Tuesday, 26 January 2021 3:07 AM To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] Elasticsearch changing licences
Yikes, have you seen : https://opensource.org/node/1099 ?
The SSPL is Not an Open Source License :\
Le 15/01/2021 à 06:22, dcook@prosentient.com.au a écrit :
Hi all,
Have folk heard that Elastic is changing the Elasticsearch licence?
Depending on your sources and your beliefs, this may or may not matter, but certainly something to be aware of.
https://www.elastic.co/pricing/faq/licensing
--
Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / co-owner
BibLibre, Services en logiciels libres pour les bibliothèques
BibLibre, Open Source software and services for libraries
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
participants (12)
-
Campbell, Colin -
dcook＠prosentient.com.au -
Ere Maijala -
Hugo Agud Andreu -
Jonathan Druart -
Joonas Kylmälä -
Magnus Enger -
Marcel de Rooy -
Paul Poulain -
Thomas Klausner -
Tomas Cohen Arazi -
Zeno Tajoli