I agree that one round of archive breakage is better than two rounds of archive breakage, so if we accept that a move to Mailman 3 is going to be inevitable at some point in the future*, that's a good argument for doing the MM3 migration now. Regardless of whether we do MM3 with Mythic Beasts (and avoid the archive breakage), or with mailmanlists.net (and live with the archive breakage), it looks like we'll be recreating the list and uploading new data (ie the existing MM2 list at mailmanlists.net likely can't be reused for MM3). Assuming that's the case and I can't avoid another round of data uploads, I've unblocked SMTP inbound to the old server, so the list will start delivering again - might as well have it working while we wait for more information. If Mythic Beasts come back with a cost that is acceptable to Jonathan (as he's offered to pay it) and can meet the timeframe, then I can't see why we'd not use them - no archive breakage is a much better result. If they can't, then I'll go back to mailmanlists.net and ask them to recreate the list as a MM3 list Cheers Simon [*] because MM2 is officially python2.7 only - there are some third party ports to python 3, but they're not in any common distributions, so using them will be installation-from-source, which is likely more work than most are prepared to commit to. On Wed, Mar 25, 2026, at 10:58 PM, Paul Poulain via Koha-devel wrote:
Hello Simon,
We had a (small group) discussion yesterday at the hackfest, and some more this morning (whole group). The consensus is that, as long as we can search in the archive, it's not a problem to have a URL change for the archive.
So we propose to move to mailmanlists.net = easy, already paid & very cheap (50€/year), no maintenance effort.
The topic mailman2 > mailman3 will be addressed later, but it's a good point. Seems that mailmanlists.net can do that for us [https://www.mailmanlists.net/en/faq/02], it will change archive URLs as well so maybe we should move to mailman3 asap, to avoid archive links being broken again in a couple of months.
QUESTION to the list : does anyone have experience with mailman3 ? Any feedback ? What does change for users ?
Le 25/03/2026 à 00:35, Simon Blake via Koha-devel a écrit :
Random acts of science, grepping around in the current archive, there have been 8026 messages to the Koha list since January 2020, of those, 56 reference other messages in the archive in the body of the message. So a bit less than 1% of messages in the archive contain links to other messages in the archive that will 404 if we move to mailmanlists.net.
It did occur to me that if it's OK to abandon the archive structure, then perhaps it makes sense to upgrade to mailman 3 at the same time? Following that line of thinking, I found this:
https://www.mythic-beasts.com/blog/2024/09/02/mailman-list-archive-link-pres...
mostly that post is about the code they wrote to preserve archives, but has a note at the bottom that they do mailman hosting. If they can do Koha a mailman3 list with the mailman2 archive preserved, then that would be a pretty good outcome. I've dropped them a line to find out what they can do and how much, I shall report back.
Also, I just realised that I forgot to remove the firewall rule that refused SMTP connections when I migrated the Koha list back to the old server, which is why there hasn't been a message to the list since March 18. While that was a dumb move on my part (apologies!), the silver lining is that it does mean that if the consensus is to move back to mailmanlists.net, then I can do that without getting them to reimport the list (ie I just change the DNS entries back to point at mailmanlists.net and delivery will restart).
Leaving the server blocking SMTP does, though, add some time pressure - in that sending servers will start dropping messages as undeliverable after 10-14 days, so we need to make a decision one way or the other in the next 36 hours. So I propose: • I'll give Mythic Beasts 24 hours to respond, if they seem viable, I'll report that back here, and I'll unblock the firewall to the current server so that the lists starts working again. • If Indranil wants to take over lists.katipo.co.nz and move it to a VM, then that needs to start happening immediately - that is, today. I'm happy to tar up the current VM and generally help with the move, I just need a target. • If neither of the above come to pass, then 24 hours from now I'll point the DNS back to mailmanlists.net
Cheers Simon
On Sun, Mar 22, 2026, at 6:43 AM, Katrin Fischer via Koha-devel wrote:
Hi all,
while Indranil's offer is very generous, I agree with Paul that as long as the archive is made searchable again the broken links might be something we could live with. I see an advantage in having one less thing to worry about maintaining.
It will also be good to get more opinions at the hackfest.
Katrin
On 20.03.26 11:11, Paul Poulain via Koha-devel wrote:
No-one has an opinion ?
Mine is that prefer to move to mailmanlists.net and loose the archive links:
• archive is still here, it will be indexed by bots • there are not so many critical backlinks • no-one else is willing to manage a server, mailmanlists.net cost 40€/year, nothing can beat it ! The topic is added to nextweek hackfest (and it includes *@lists.koha-community.org)
Cheers,
Le 19/03/2026 à 05:49, Simon Blake a écrit :
Feedback from mailmanlists.net is that the the url changes are an expected side effect of the way they import the existing list - they regenerate the archive from scratch from the .mbox file, so they assert there is nothing they can do to ensure archive links continue to work. This feels a little arbitrary - the archive is just a tree of HTML in the filesystem, there's no obvious reason it could't be copied from the old system (as you'd do if you were moving from one server to another).
So all opinons welcome. The current server goes away at the end of the month, Koha can • continue with maIlmanlists.net and accept the link breakage • move/recreate the vm somewhere else, with intact archive • something else ? Cheers Simon
On Thu, Mar 19, 2026, at 1:18 PM, Simon Blake via Koha-devel wrote:
After mulling that choice for a few minutes, I concluded that reverting is the prudent approach - losing subscription changes and archives of messages from the past 12 hours is better than invalidating every external link into the archive.
So I've reverted the DNS back to the old server while we sort this out. Pathing in to archives will fix itself as DNS caches time out.
Cheers Simon
On Thu, Mar 19, 2026, at 12:51 PM, Simon Blake via Koha-devel wrote: > That's a fine question, good spotting! The new server is a managed service (on mailmanlists.net), so we don't get direct access to it. That said, even if we did, a redirect would be kind of difficult, as it's not just the path - the endpoint HTML file names in the archive have also changed (ie > > https://oldlists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2025-February/061229.html > > has become > > https://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2025-February/056688.html > > Since Paul is likely asleep, I've contacted the support folks at mailmanlists.net to see what they can do (they're in Sydney NSW). > > Comparing the two archives, it looks like there hasn't been a posting > > Question for you folks, if MML.net come back and say "nothing we can do, suck it up cupcake", then what is the feeling of the koha project to that? I can revert the DNS changes back to the old server, which will obviously fix all the broken links, but will drop any messages sent to the list since the change from the old archive (currently only the last two messages on https://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2026-March/date.html#start ) > > Cheers > Simon > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2026, at 11:41 AM, David Cook via Koha-devel wrote: >> By the way, it looks like a lot of old links are broken now like https://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2025-February/061229.html >> >> Are there plans to do a redirect? >> >> David Cook >> Senior Software Engineer >> Prosentient Systems >> Suite 7.03 >> 6a Glen St >> Milsons Point NSW 2061 >> Australia >> >> Office: 02 9212 0899 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Koha-devel <koha-devel-bounces@lists.koha-community.org> On Behalf Of Paul Poulain via Koha-devel >> Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2026 7:29 PM >> To: koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org> >> Subject: [Koha-devel] koha mailing list moved, who is admin ? >> >> Hello all, >> >> The https://lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha has been moved from a katipo server to mailmanlists.net provider (BibLibre paying the bill). >> >> I have forwarded the admin password to @rangi (Chris C.) , I have it too. >> >> @RACHEL = do you want to still be admin ? >> >> @KOHA-DEVEL = anyone else should be ? Something to be discussed/decided during the next general meeting ? >> >> Note that, next week during the hackfest, we may move @lists.koha-community.org lists to this provider as well. >> >> -- >> Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / CEO >> BibLibre, Services et logiciels libres pour votre bibliothèque BibLibre, Open Source software and services for your library >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Koha-devel mailing list >> Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org >> https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >> website : https://www.koha-community.org/ >> git : https://git.koha-community.org/ >> bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > Koha-devel mailing list > Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org > https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel > website : https://www.koha-community.org/ > git : https://git.koha-community.org/ > bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/ >
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
-- Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / CEO BibLibre, Services et logiciels libres pour votre bibliothèque BibLibre, Open Source software and services for your library
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/ -- Paul Poulain, Associé-gérant / CEO BibLibre, Services et logiciels libres pour votre bibliothèque BibLibre, Open Source software and services for your library
Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org https://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel website : https://www.koha-community.org/ git : https://git.koha-community.org/ bugs : https://bugs.koha-community.org/