Hi all, Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers? Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Hi all, I second this idea. If possible I would like donate few dollars. It is more reasonable for Taiwanese that Koha is supported by Koha Foundation. We could told potential Koha clients that Koha Foundation promises to back up your library technically. Local company/volunteers would do the rest. 2006/3/17, Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com>:
Hi all,
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
Cheers,
-- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
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-- Best regards 毛慶禎, Anthony Mao, mao at lins dot fju dot edu dot tw ICQ 30941847 Department of Library and Information Science http://www.lins.fju.edu.tw/mao/index.htm TEL +886 2 29052334, FAX +886 2 29017405 Fu-jen Catholic University, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.
Joshua Ferraro a écrit :
Hi all,
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
I already said to joshua I think it's a good time to build a NPO now. What could be it's goal ? "provide open source solutions for all tasks a library does daily". What could be it's services : * coordinate user requests ? i'm not sure, as we have some companies already doing this. And I would not see the projet slowed by too much administrations. * secure the Koha name. For sure a good idea ! "koha" MUST be a non-profit term. katipo as well as liblime as well as me don't use "koha" as their business name. And it must be kept as it ! * promote OSS solutions in libraries. * be owner of the copyright. plus some technical services : * provide things like backup servers, opensearchportal for all koha installs, ... That's a 1st draft of my ideas. To be investigated during KohaCon ! -- Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT Consultants indépendants en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)
Hi all, I'll chime in on this :-)
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha.
I already said to joshua I think it's a good time to build a NPO now.
I agree. I have done some looking around at other projects, and have talked to a few people involved in other open source projects and librarians here. It seems that having a foundation or similar adds to the credibility of a project.
What could be it's goal ? "provide open source solutions for all tasks a library does daily".
What could be it's services : * coordinate user requests ? i'm not sure, as we have some companies already doing this. And I would not see the projet slowed by too much administrations. * secure the Koha name. For sure a good idea ! "koha" MUST be a non-profit term. katipo as well as liblime as well as me don't use "koha" as their business name. And it must be kept as it ! * promote OSS solutions in libraries. * be owner of the copyright.
The copyright of what? This might be tricky and something that we need to work through. Not a deal breaker in my book, but given the nature of the way the software has been developed (numerous contributors) this could be hard to set up. But this isn't my field.
plus some technical services : * provide things like backup servers, opensearchportal for all koha installs, ...
I think we have some growing pains happening here. To date the project has been run fairly loosely. But with more development comes more complexity and the harder and more time consuming the roles of release manager, release maintainer, and kaitiaki become. With that in mind, here is my take at some broad goals - Ensuring that the Koha project is ongoing and vital (full of life). - To facilitate ways the Koha community can work together Some other goals/ thoughts - Reassurance that Koha is bigger than a couple of vendors and is not tied into their success and failure - A vehicle to seek funding for - further development of features - Future Koha user/developer conferences/ user group meetings. - usability/ accessibilty studies - more translations/localisation - deployment/adoption in developing countries (partnering with other oss projects and hardware vendors) - Probably a long term goal, but the NPO could open up these possibilities. - Kaitiaki (guardianship) role - recoginses the importance of this role and the amount of time it takes (would make sense to move this role to NPO. I am sure I can think of more :-) But that is a start and an indication of my thinking anyway. Cheers Russel -- Russel Garlick Operations Manager Katipo Communications Ph: +64 4 934 1285 Fax: +64 4 934 1286 Mob: +64 27 537 1377 Skype: russelgarlick Web http://www.katipo.co.nz
Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com>
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
I'm a bit surprised this asks for my reasons for wanting such an organisation, rather than asking *whether* I want such an organisation. I think it sounds like needless bureaucracy and a chance to waste money on accountants, solicitors and corporate administration. What benefit would it offer over becoming a project of a recognised host foundation such as Software in the Public Interest (SPI)? http://www.spi-inc.org/ Intrigued, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
Hi Joshua Said...
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
I'm a taker :-) MJ Ray Said
I'm a bit surprised this asks for my reasons for wanting such an organisation, rather than asking *whether* I want such an organisation. I think it sounds like needless bureaucracy and a chance to waste money on accountants, solicitors and corporate administration. What benefit would it offer over becoming a project of a recognised host foundation such as Software in the Public Interest (SPI)? http://www.spi-inc.org/
Rachel Says We (Katipo) have tossed around the idea of setting up a Koha Foundation over the last couple of years for a number of reasons. The core one though is to make Koha more palatable and understandable to bigger public libraries in particular. They understand that a not for profit organisation would give away software but I think are somewhat distrustful of private companies doing so. It would fit their "world view" better or something. The idea of being able to take donations is appealing, not that we've been offered any, but you never know, and being able to apply for funding would be useful too I think. So for me what I'd most want to get out of a Foundation is an understandable narative to tell prospective clients. It would be great if it was international, and had basically had the "mana" (which is a word that is hard to translate, but sort of "earnt respect & authority"), to speak for Koha, and to reassure libraries that Koha is a real going concern. For me, it's not particularly to make it easier for coders or even to greatly improve the quality of the product - although those would be good things as well if we can achieve them, it's just that I don't necessarily think that a foundation/umbrella organisation would inherantly do so. I see setting up a foundation as a tool for selling an idea to libraries, and possibly as a way to ensure the ongoing shared governance of the project - which is what clients want I believe Cheers Rachel -- ----------------------------- Rachel Hamilton-Williams General Manager Katipo Communications Ltd Phone: +64-4-934 1285 Mobile: 021 389 128 E-mail: rachel@katipo.co.nz Web: www.katipo.co.nz
I don't consider myself a Koha developer, eventhough I have contributed code in the past. But here goes my two Uruguayan Pesos. Why not become a project of the apache foundation? I think that It would also serve to make Koha more independent of their original developers or the companies that suport koha. For the developers it wont change much, apart that is time to make koha code more clean, I'm aware of some achivments are beign meade for the upcomming Koha 3.0 Andres Joshua Ferraro wrote:
Hi all,
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
Cheers,
Andres Tarallo <tarallo@ort.edu.uy>
Why not become a project of the apache foundation? I think that It would also serve to make Koha more independent of their original developers or the companies that suport koha.
For the developers it wont change much, apart that is time to make koha code more clean, I'm aware of some achivments are beign meade for the upcomming Koha 3.0
I've worked with Apache projects in the past, for a previous business. I think becoming an Apache project would change the way Koha development works, to fit in with http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management - why do you think it wouldn't change much? If we want a minimum-change host foundation, I still suggest we ask to become a project of Software in the Public Interest, http://www.spi-inc.org/ - other projects there include PostgreSQL, Debian, Fresco, GNUstep and OFTC. Gnome and OSI were projects until they set up their own foundations, so we could spin off later if there's need/desire to do so. Comments? -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
Well, opting to join another group would be one way to go but for the kinds of things I'd like the Koha Foundation to do it probably wouldn't be ideal. For instance, it'd be neat if we had a collaborative record-sharing system for Koha libraries that they could subscribe too (nominal fee just to keep it going), submit records to and use records from other libraries. That would be much easier to set up with an organization that _we_ were running so that _we_ could make purchase decisions, etc. Also, I'd really like to go after some grant money -- at least in the US, there are lots of non-profit grants available for library projects that could really help us out in finding resources for development projects. As it stands, the process for getting a grant would be too difficult as we'd have to go through a library or other non-profit to qualify ... Just my two cents ... what do others thing about those ideas? -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Joshua Ferraro wrote:
Well, opting to join another group would be one way to go but for the kinds of things I'd like the Koha Foundation to do it probably wouldn't be ideal. For instance, it'd be neat if we had a collaborative record-sharing system for Koha libraries that they could subscribe too (nominal fee just to keep it going), submit records to and use records from other libraries. This would be nice, but I don't see that this couldn't be done under the umbrella of a bigger fundation. That would be much easier to set up with an organization that _we_ were running so that _we_ could make purchase decisions, etc.
Also, I'd really like to go after some grant money -- at least in the US, there are lots of non-profit grants available for library projects that could really help us out in finding resources for development projects. Hmmm. .. Here in latin america libraries are like cinderella, the parent you hide in the cellar. Everyone agrees that are important but when investment is needed is dificult to find may. Apart from that there's a strong marriage between libraries, UNESCO an CDS-ISIS (and his derivatives). Maybe for develoers in developed countries this is usefull
Andres
On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 09:03:15PM -0300, Andres Tarallo wrote:
Joshua Ferraro wrote:
Well, opting to join another group would be one way to go but for the kinds of things I'd like the Koha Foundation to do it probably wouldn't be ideal. For instance, it'd be neat if we had a collaborative record-sharing system for Koha libraries that they could subscribe too (nominal fee just to keep it going), submit records to and use records from other libraries. This would be nice, but I don't see that this couldn't be done under the umbrella of a bigger fundation. How easy would it be to hire someone to work for 'the foundation' and do original cataloging or to maintain the infrastructure if Koha developers and Koha libraries weren't actually the ones running the non-profit? (I ask out of ignorance).
That would be much easier to set up with an organization that _we_ were running so that _we_ could make purchase decisions, etc.
Also, I'd really like to go after some grant money -- at least in the US, there are lots of non-profit grants available for library projects that could really help us out in finding resources for development projects. Hmmm. .. Here in latin america libraries are like cinderella, the parent you hide in the cellar. Everyone agrees that are important but when investment is needed is dificult to find may. Apart from that there's a strong marriage between libraries, UNESCO an CDS-ISIS (and his derivatives). Maybe for develoers in developed countries this is usefull Well, that's true in the US too, but there are some specific grants that libraries or non-profits can go after (some Federal like the LSTA, but some State-level as well) that we would stand a very good chance of getting if we were a bit organized about it. I think libraries and grant committies would really support a well-organized effort to provide a highly-developed open-source ILS (since in the US at least an ILS often takes up a considerable portion of the library budget).
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Just wondering, does anyone on the last have any idea how to set up a foundation? I was thinking maybe the mozilla foundation might be one to pattern after (of course, they happen to have some big money from Google and such). Kyle On 3/22/06, Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com> wrote:
Well, opting to join another group would be one way to go but for the kinds of things I'd like the Koha Foundation to do it probably wouldn't be ideal. For instance, it'd be neat if we had a collaborative record-sharing system for Koha libraries that they could subscribe too (nominal fee just to keep it going), submit records to and use records from other libraries. That would be much easier to set up with an organization that _we_ were running so that _we_ could make purchase decisions, etc.
Also, I'd really like to go after some grant money -- at least in the US, there are lots of non-profit grants available for library projects that could really help us out in finding resources for development projects. As it stands, the process for getting a grant would be too difficult as we'd have to go through a library or other non-profit to qualify ...
Just my two cents ... what do others thing about those ideas?
-- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
_______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@nongnu.org http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
-- IT Tech Crawford County Federated Library System
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 09:11:42AM -0500, Kyle Hall wrote:
Just wondering, does anyone on the last have any idea how to set up a foundation? I was thinking maybe the mozilla foundation might be one to pattern after (of course, they happen to have some big money from Google and such). In the US this is done by forming a corporation and then filing for non-profit status. It's a pretty painless process for the most part.
-- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Kyle Hall a écrit :
Just wondering, does anyone on the last have any idea how to set up a foundation? I was thinking maybe the mozilla foundation might be one to pattern after (of course, they happen to have some big money from Google and such).
I asked Tristan Nitot, from Mozilla-F. He is french so could help us with international questions (even if "Koha-F" is not started by someone like netscape ;-) ) Unfortunatly, he didn't answer (he's a very very busy man...) But I think mo-fo is something we could look at more deeply ! -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
This is a combined reply to four related emails. Hope that's OK. Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com>
Well, opting to join another group would be one way to go but for the kinds of things I'd like the Koha Foundation to do it probably wouldn't be ideal. For instance, it'd be neat if we had a collaborative record-sharing system for Koha libraries that they could subscribe too (nominal fee just to keep it going), submit records to and use records from other libraries. That would be much easier to set up with an organization that _we_ were running so that _we_ could make purchase decisions, etc.
I don't see joining a host foundation as a reason to stop running the koha project. Project management and foundation administration are different things. IIRC SPI lets the project manager(s) remain in charge and they're appointed as advisor(s) to the board. In the Apache Foundation, the project management committee and the Apache board are two different groups with a liaison. If anything, using a host foundation rather than setting up a new one should reduce the admin overhead and give us access to experienced people who have done lots of this before, but I encourage all koha developers (KDs) who care to check the rules closely before we agree to anything.
Also, I'd really like to go after some grant money -- [...]
How would being part of a larger non-profit hinder this?
How easy would it be to hire someone to work for 'the foundation' and do original cataloging or to maintain the infrastructure if Koha developers and Koha libraries weren't actually the ones running the non-profit? (I ask out of ignorance).
It depends how much money koha has, either in donations/grants for koha, or in grants/transfers from the host foundation's general funds. Russel Garlick <russel@katipo.co.nz>
Has anyone had any experience in this environment? Certainly worth looking into. Can you do both?
I am a contributing member of Software in the Public Interest, a Debian developer and a GNUstep project member (both SPI projects). I helped set up AFFS, the UK associate organisation of FSF Europe. I have also been involved with some other organisations and was unhappily involved in the creation of the Debian-UK Society which is actually a retail business venture. Do both what? Join a host and set up your own? Yes, but why?
but there are some other goals that we at Katipo are interested in that may not be addressed.
You know your audience better than me. I think "koha, a project of the non-profit Software in the Public Interest" sounds as good as "koha, a project of the non-profit koha foundation". I think SPI doesn't just provide hosting and so on, but also could help handle money and regulations for us. "Kyle Hall" <kyle.m.hall@gmail.com>
Just wondering, does anyone on the last have any idea how to set up a foundation? I was thinking maybe the mozilla foundation might be one to pattern after (of course, they happen to have some big money from Google and such).
I've been involved in set-up before. It is absolutely no fun and I strongly advise against wasting our time. I did it then because of a need (being registered in the UK, with UK banking) which no other group seemed to serve then. I can't see any detailed description of how the Mozilla Foundation works on http://www.mozilla.org/ so I can't comment if their pattern is any good. If they hide information, that's not good. (I know SPI's web site is currently out-of-date, but that's just a volunteer gone missing. The info is in the mailing list archives or on pages like http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/ ) Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
MJ Ray wrote:
Andres Tarallo <tarallo@ort.edu.uy>
Why not become a project of the apache foundation? I think that It would also serve to make Koha more independent of their original developers or the companies that suport koha.
For the developers it wont change much, apart that is time to make koha code more clean, I'm aware of some achivments are beign meade for the upcomming Koha 3.0
I've worked with Apache projects in the past, for a previous business. I think becoming an Apache project would change the way Koha development works, to fit in with http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management - why do you think it wouldn't change much?
Maybe because I see how things are beeing done in Latin American. Most people dedicated to efforts like fundations do lobby and advocacy, but contribute little or nothing to software development. Developers in koha contribute for diferent reasons, but many of the core developers work with Koha because they earn a leaving with koha. This last fact has made an important advance in koha, a terrific progress in the last years. In my latin american biased vision I don't see that a fundation could help developers here. Looking close the internals of the Apache fundation it looks that you're right: koha might chance the way it works, at least a little.
If we want a minimum-change host foundation, I still suggest we ask to become a project of Software in the Public Interest, http://www.spi-inc.org/ - other projects there include PostgreSQL, Debian, Fresco, GNUstep and OFTC. Gnome and OSI were projects until they set up their own foundations, so we could spin off later if there's need/desire to do so.
I'll take a look into it.
Andres Tarallo a écrit :
Maybe because I see how things are beeing done in Latin American. Most people dedicated to efforts like fundations do lobby and advocacy, but contribute little or nothing to software development. Developers in koha contribute for diferent reasons, but many of the core developers work with Koha because they earn a leaving with koha. This last fact has made an important advance in koha, a terrific progress in the last years. In my latin american biased vision I don't see that a fundation could help developers here.
Thanks for terrific progress in the last years ;-) A foundation won't probably help a lot developers, but, as a developer, I don't see Koha as "my" property. I'm happy to earn money with it, I hope earning more, but I really want that libraries don't use Koha because of me but because of the product and the project. So, I think the foundation is something important for libraries, not for developpers. Even if it is proposed by katipo/liblime/me (seems we all had the idea at the same moment !), it's for libraries, not for us. -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
MJ Ray wrote:
If we want a minimum-change host foundation, I still suggest we ask to become a project of Software in the Public Interest, http://www.spi-inc.org/ - other projects there include PostgreSQL, Debian, Fresco, GNUstep and OFTC. Gnome and OSI were projects until they set up their own foundations, so we could spin off later if there's need/desire to do so.
Comments?
Has anyone had any experience in this environment? Certainly worth looking into. Can you do both? But from what I have seen on their site, SPI sounds like a philanthropic organisation - ie they provide funding and hardware. All nice to have, but there are some other goals that we at Katipo are interested in that may not be addressed. <snip from rachel's email> ... The core one though is to make Koha more palatable and understandable to bigger public libraries in particular... They understand that a not for profit organisation would give away software but I think are somewhat distrustful of private companies doing so. It would fit their "world view" better or something. ...to reassure libraries that Koha is a real going concern... I see setting up a foundation as a tool for selling an idea to libraries, and possibly as a way to ensure the ongoing shared governance of the project - which is what clients want I believe </snip> How would becoming an SPI project help here? Does anyone know? Or is that a question for SPI? Cheers -- Russel Garlick Operations Manager Katipo Communications Ph: +64 4 934 1285 Fax: +64 4 934 1286 Mob: +64 27 537 1377 Skype: russelgarlick Web http://www.katipo.co.nz
Andres Tarallo a écrit :
Why not become a project of the apache foundation? I think that It would also serve to make Koha more independent of their original developers or the companies that suport koha.
My main problem with this idea is to be a part of "technical" foundation. I -strongly- think that the foundation must be for librarians, not for techies. So, I can be happy with the idea to be a part of a "librarian foundation", but not of a "technical" foundation. And I think no library know what is "Apache foundation" ! The problem being that I don't know any librarian foundation that is related to computer questions. Thus the idea to create something new ! Hoping i'm clear... -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:31:36 +0200 Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr> wrote:
The problem being that I don't know any librarian foundation that is related to computer questions. Thus the idea to create something new !
Maybe one more reformulation would be useful : you want to consolidate a user community more than a techy community. If we want to give chances to a user community, I'm not so sure we need a "foundation". We need more user oriented tools: - a bulletin board forum instead of a mailing-list. I ask you to be honnest : mailing-list are fine for developers, not for users. - a user oriented fancier wiki, with "tips and tricks", "use cases", details on how works a functionnality. - an extension manager writable for users (optionnaly moderated) were they would share their templates and translations This is my vision of how we could improve users involvement. Cheers, -- Pierrick LE GALL INEO media system
Pierrick LE GALL wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:31:36 +0200 Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr> wrote:
The problem being that I don't know any librarian foundation that is related to computer questions. Thus the idea to create something new !
Maybe one more reformulation would be useful : you want to consolidate a user community more than a techy community.
If we want to give chances to a user community, I'm not so sure we need a "foundation". We need more user oriented tools:
[snip a bunch of good suggestions]
This is my vision of how we could improve users involvement.
Improving users involvement is one thing. The thing that a Foundation brings, is legitimacy, or perceived legitimacy anyway. Thats not to say we dont want more user oriented tools, but having a foundation affords a lot of other advantages. I think rachels email sums them up well. You can read it here http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/koha-devel/2006-03/msg00067.html It may be that we can get these from joining an existing foundation, maybe not. Either way, better tools to improving users involvement is certainly something we should explore Chris So I think we might want both :)
Hi, Chris Cormack wrote: "It may be that we can get these from joining an existing foundation, maybe not. Either way, better tools to improving users involvement is certainly something we should explore So I think we might want both :)" Hi, Could I ask for some clarification? Isn't Koha already licensed under the FSF? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation If it were to be decided to start a "Koha Foundation" or join an alternate Foundation, how would this affect the license with FSF? Is the copyright of Koha held by FSF? Can Koha apply for grants under FSF? Receive donations? How well does FSF oversee the 4000 licenses currently listed in its directory? Rules of entry and exit? What are the benefits to the Koha developers or the Koha users community, to be licensed under the FSF? And I also wonder how legitimate/important other librarians or library managers view the FSF and Koha's association with the FSF? I will make some enquiries amongst my library contacts in Australia. Thank you, Irma Irma Birchall Calyx information essentials irma@calyx.net.au www.calyx.net.au
Irma Birchall wrote:
Hi,
Hi Irma
Could I ask for some clarification? Isn't Koha already licensed under the FSF? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation
No Koha is licensed under the GPL version 2. # Koha is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the # terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software # Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later # version. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
If it were to be decided to start a "Koha Foundation" or join an alternate Foundation, how would this affect the license with FSF? Is the copyright of Koha held by FSF?
Not at all, we are not part of the FSF in any way. We publish our software under a license they wrote.
Can Koha apply for grants under FSF? Receive donations? How well does FSF oversee the 4000 licenses currently listed in its directory? Rules of entry and exit? What are the benefits to the Koha developers or the Koha users community, to be licensed under the FSF?
We arent licensed under the FSF, people who use Koha are bound by the terms of the GPL (which the FSF wrote). Think of the FSF as a lawyer who you get to write an agreement for you. They wrote a license that thousands of Free Software projects around the world use to distribute their software.
And I also wonder how legitimate/important other librarians or library managers view the FSF and Koha's association with the FSF?
We have no formal association with them, we use a license they wrote. Thats the extent of our involvement.
I will make some enquiries amongst my library contacts in Australia.
Enquiries about a Foundation would be good. But dont ask about our association with the FSF, we have none. Asking how libraries would view the koha project starting a Foundation, or perhaps becoming part of an existing foundation, would be valuable. Chris
Chris Cormack a écrit :
Irma Birchall wrote:
Think of the FSF as a lawyer who you get to write an agreement for you. They wrote a license that thousands of Free Software projects around the world use to distribute their software.
Not exactly true : we use FSF this way. But we COULD give the copyright to FSF. FSF told everywhere that "they can sue anyone stealing a GPL software, but only if THEY hold the copyright". Unless I'm missing something, the @ is hold by katipo : #!/usr/bin/perl # Copyright 2000-2002 Katipo Communications # # This file is part of Koha. # <snip> -- Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT Consultants indépendants en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)
On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 04:11:47PM +0200, Paul POULAIN said:
Chris Cormack a ?crit :
Irma Birchall wrote:
Think of the FSF as a lawyer who you get to write an agreement for you. They wrote a license that thousands of Free Software projects around the world use to distribute their software.
Not exactly true : we use FSF this way. But we COULD give the copyright to FSF. FSF told everywhere that "they can sue anyone stealing a GPL software, but only if THEY hold the copyright". Unless I'm missing something, the @ is hold by katipo : #!/usr/bin/perl # Copyright 2000-2002 Katipo Communications # # This file is part of Koha. # <snip>
Not all of it is, misc/translator/po/default_intranet_zh_TW.po:# Copyright 2004-2005 Ambrose Li misc/translator/po/default_opac_pl_PL.po:# Copyright 2004 Benedykt P. Barszcz C4/Amazon.pm:# Copyright 2004-2005 Joshua Ferraro (jmf at kados dot org) misc/overduenotices.pl:# Copyright 2003 Skemotah Solutions misc/Install.pm:# Contains parts Copyright 2003-4 MJ Ray Etc, but yes the majority is. You are right, we could assign copyright to the FSF .. I dont think anyone is proposing to do that though are they? Chris -- Chris Cormack Programmer 027 4500 789 Katipo Communications Ltd chris@katipo.co.nz www.katipo.co.nz
Chris Cormack wrote:
On Thu, Mar 30, 2006 at 04:11:47PM +0200, Paul POULAIN said:
Chris Cormack a ?crit :
Irma Birchall wrote:
Think of the FSF as a lawyer who you get to write an agreement for you. They wrote a license that thousands of Free Software projects around the world use to distribute their software.
Not exactly true : we use FSF this way. But we COULD give the copyright to FSF. FSF told everywhere that "they can sue anyone stealing a GPL software, but only if THEY hold the copyright". Unless I'm missing something, the @ is hold by katipo : #!/usr/bin/perl # Copyright 2000-2002 Katipo Communications # # This file is part of Koha. # <snip>
Not all of it is,
misc/translator/po/default_intranet_zh_TW.po:# Copyright 2004-2005 Ambrose Li misc/translator/po/default_opac_pl_PL.po:# Copyright 2004 Benedykt P. Barszcz C4/Amazon.pm:# Copyright 2004-2005 Joshua Ferraro (jmf at kados dot org) misc/overduenotices.pl:# Copyright 2003 Skemotah Solutions misc/Install.pm:# Contains parts Copyright 2003-4 MJ Ray
And yo missed some scripts (c) 2005 Universidad ORT Uruguay. ;) Andres
Chris Cormack a écrit :
You are right, we could assign copyright to the FSF .. I dont think anyone is proposing to do that though are they?
Of course no ! -- Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT Consultants indépendants en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)
This email replies to Paul POULAIN, Pierrick LE GALL and Irma Birchall. Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr>
My main problem with this idea is to be a part of "technical" foundation. I -strongly- think that the foundation must be for librarians, not for=20 techies. So, I can be happy with the idea to be a part of a "librarian=20 foundation", but not of a "technical" foundation. And I think no library know what is "Apache foundation" ! The problem being that I don't know any librarian foundation that is=20 related to computer questions. Thus the idea to create something new !
Does anyone know a suitable host librarian foundation? I think a "Koha foundation" will be known by as few libraries as the "Apache foundation". The name of "Software in the Public Interest" is at least explanatory, but I think many will be disappointed if this foundation idea is a branding tool. There are easier ways to achieve similar effects, such as a consortium or even just a stronger role for the project. Even so, if the foundation is made by technical developers, it will still not be a librarian foundation. If it is made by librarians, I fear it will disenfranchise developers. Pierrick LE GALL <pierrick@koha-fr.org>
If we want to give chances to a user community, I'm not so sure we need a "foundation". We need more user oriented tools:
- a bulletin board forum instead of a mailing-list. I ask you to be honnest : mailing-list are fine for developers, not for users.
That is the reverse of my experience and others, such as: We discourage the use of tools that can only be accessed via web browsers. Such tools demand broadband access for efficient use, which is an unnecessary barrier to participation for many people. E-Democracy.org has found that because email "comes to you" and doesn't require a participant to log onto a website, participation is generally better than in similar web based forums. In addition, the structure of an email forum tends to increase the likelihood that participants will be exposed to a variety of issues and not just those that are aligned with their current viewpoints making for a much more diverse and meaningful discussion. -- Local Issues Forum Guidebook, www.e-democracy.org and you don't get a much broader audience of non-developers than "everybody"!
- a user oriented fancier wiki, with "tips and tricks", "use cases", details on how works a functionnality.
- an extension manager writable for users (optionnaly moderated) were they would share their templates and translations
Both of those could be done, if someone has time. Anyone? "Irma Birchall" <irma@bigpond.net.au>
Could I ask for some clarification?
Yes. ;-)
Isn't Koha already licensed under the FSF?
It is licensed under the GNU General Public License (GPL). http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
If it were to be decided to start a "Koha Foundation" or join an alternate Foundation, how would this affect the license with FSF?
Not at all. The copyright is licensed by the licensors, not FSF.
Is the copyright of Koha held by FSF?
No.
Can Koha apply for grants under FSF? Receive donations?
This could mean two things. Trying to answer both: 1. I'm not aware of any relevant grants offered by the FSF. 2. Being under the GPL doesn't prevent grants or donations.
How well does FSF oversee the 4000 licenses currently listed in its directory? Rules of entry and exit?
I see 87 licences listed by FSF. There is a team of legal advisers supported by lawyers who review the licences.
What are the benefits to the Koha developers or the Koha users community, to be licensed under the FSF?
GPL helps collaboration between developers, encourages sharing and attracts developers who would not otherwise consider koha. As the GPL becomes more widely-understood, it should also attract users who should be sharing skills rather than begging software licensors for permission to keep using a system.
And I also wonder how legitimate/important other librarians or library managers view the FSF and Koha's association with the FSF? I will make some enquiries amongst my library contacts in Australia.
I await your information with interest. Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:52:14 +0100 MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
Pierrick LE GALL <pierrick@koha-fr.org>
If we want to give chances to a user community, I'm not so sure we need a "foundation". We need more user oriented tools:
- a bulletin board forum instead of a mailing-list. I ask you to be honnest : mailing-list are fine for developers, not for users.
That is the reverse of my experience and others, such as: [... e-democracy.org extract ...]
and you don't get a much broader audience of non-developers than "everybody"!
We have different experiences, that's all :-) No problem for me if we have no bulletin-board, I think it's too bad for users but for developers it's useless. I don't want the discussion to go any further, but I give what I consider the advantages of an online bulletin board instead of a mailing-list: - centralized - easier to search - you can be notified only on subjects you're subscribed to - more user friendly - easier to link a wiki page to a forum topic/post than to a mail of the mailing list I personnaly like using mailing-lists because I have a deeper control on my user interface, but I can be considered as an advanced user. Subject closed, no need to argue anymore :-) -- Pierrick LE GALL INEO media system
Pierrick LE GALL <pierrick@koha-fr.org>
I don't want the discussion to go any further, but I give what I consider the advantages of an online bulletin board instead of a mailing-list: [...] Subject closed, no need to argue anymore :-)
I think you're missing the point from the e-democracy.org experiences, so let me be clearer: to succeed in the long term, a forum *needs* the email interface. Even so, this is not a choice between mailing list and web forums. We can have both, like at http://forums.e-democracy.org or like at http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.misc.koha - doesn't that give koha most of the benefits that you've described? Maybe we should retitle our link and promote it better? Hope that clarifies, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
Joshua Ferraro a écrit :
Hi all,
Over the past few weeks we've discussed the idea of forming a Koha Foundation -- a non-profit organization for Koha. I'd like to open this topic up to koha-devel to hear what your reasons are for wanting such an organization, as well as how you think it should be set up (and where). Any takers?
Another reason to have a foundation : I know many libraries that have out dated computers, waiting power-off in the cellars. I also know many libraries in Africa that could be interested by such computers, with Koha (server or client -firefox-) installed. So the foundation could help them to meet ! (that's a thing I can't really do : I could, but "who proves me that you don't plan to keep computers for yourself" ? and "who will pay UPS to deliver the computer to Burkina-faso/ivory coast/congo/anywhere else ?" -- Paul POULAIN et Henri Damien LAURENT Consultants indépendants en logiciels libres et bibliothéconomie (http://www.koha-fr.org)
Paul POULAIN <paul.poulain@free.fr>
Another reason to have a foundation : I know many libraries that have out dated computers, waiting power-off=20 in the cellars. I also know many libraries in Africa that could be interested by such=20 computers, with Koha (server or client -firefox-) installed.
There are already charities doing that which maybe we could partner, if you're interested. From what I hear, it's hard enough for them to track the masses of rules and regulations in reprocessing computers. I think it would be a large distraction for a Koha foundation to try to do it ourselves. It could probably end up a PC-recycling foundation with Koha tacked on. Best wishes, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
participants (12)
-
Andres Tarallo -
Chris Cormack -
Chris Cormack -
Irma Birchall -
Joshua Ferraro -
Kyle Hall -
MJ Ray -
Paul POULAIN -
Pierrick LE GALL -
Rachel Hamilton-Williams -
Russel Garlick -
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