[Koha-devel] Gender-neutral pronouns

Wed Apr 19 22:16:26 CEST 2017

Hi Philippe,

"She" doesn't solve either of the problems I outlined in my original
statement, however. It still excludes people who aren't of a particular
gender and it's still inaccurate in places where it implies a particular
value for borrowers.sex.

I don't mean to make more work for anyone, cause trouble, or to make things
more confusing. There are places where Chris' suggestion makes sense; we
can avoid pronouns altogether, if possible. But I'm not sure that works in
every comment. I just see so little harm in correcting the existing
instances of gendered language and establishing a guideline for future
writing. Most of this work has already been done.

When you look at the current terminology guidelines
<https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Terminology>, some choices have
already been based upon locality. Thus the use of "patrons" over
"borrowers" even though the database table was named borrowers, for
instance. There will always be tradeoffs. I think "they" is the best option
given the available choices, for reasons already articulated.

> The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a person in
some comment.

If you're referring to my bug, you've misunderstood my comment; an object,
not a person, was being referred to as "he" and I changed it to "it."

Best,
Eric Phetteplace
Systems Librarian
California College of the Arts
libraries.cca.edu | vault.cca.edu
510.594.3660
2>/dev/null

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Philippe Blouin <
philippe.blouin at inlibro.com> wrote:

> That's no strawman, that's a genuine questionning.
>
> You talk inclusivity, I'm all for it, but can we walk the talk now?
> 'They' is a bigger barrier to entry than 'he' for non-English
> readers/coders.  But hey, what do I know, what is my perspective here?  The
> stated initiative is good: the majority of users are female, the code is
> male-centric, can we be progressive, inclusive...  But 'they' sucks.  As I
> said, why not use "she" ?
>
> I don't send formating and commenting patches, the QA team having quite
> enough on its plate already.
> Philippe Blouin,
> Responsable du développement informatique
>
> Tél.  : (888) 604-2627
> philippe.blouin at inLibro.com
> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com
> On 04/19/2017 03:20 PM, Chris Cormack wrote:
>
> Of course we won't fail patches, thanks for the strawman. We can easily
> fix them instead. In fact I volunteer to do that.
>
> You're welcome to fix grammar too, send some patches.
>
> And of course you can vote -1 you just did. I certainly noticed it.
>
> Chris
>
> On 20 April 2017 7:16:22 AM NZST, Philippe Blouin
> <philippe.blouin at inlibro.com> <philippe.blouin at inlibro.com> wrote:
>>
>> My mistake, I hadn't read the original bugzilla. :-(
>>
>> Well, can I -1 this or only +1 are politically acceptable?  Since this is
>> politic, really.  Could you amend the ticket to also rewrite all the
>> comments to some acceptable level of English, to start with?  Syntax,
>> grammar, conjugation...
>>
>> Call me obtuse, but 'they' can be quite offputting in the middle of a
>> sentence.  I've read some short novels with that usage (used as an
>> androgynous pronoun).  To someone whose first language is not English, that
>> can be quite disconcerting on first and second read.
>>
>> The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a person in
>> some comment.  Well, that's the type of things that occurs in a software
>> partly written by French (I'm not pointing), Indians and Finns...  You want
>> to set a rule forcing them to use proper English, you'll fail their patches
>> because of it, in the name of inclusivity???  That's productive...
>>
>> Frankly, a much better "rule" should have been to write all comments
>> using the *female* form.  Clear and concise.  But I don't believe that
>> was the aim of the ticket...
>> Philippe Blouin,
>> Responsable du développement informatique
>>
>> Tél.  : (888) 604-2627
>> philippe.blouin at inLibro.com
>> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com
>> On 04/19/2017 02:18 PM, Jonathan Druart wrote:
>>
>> The patches only affect code comments so no translation needed.
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at 15:12 Philippe Blouin <philippe.blouin at inlibro.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How many of "these" are there to change?  Not that the work itself will
>>> be massive, but putting a 'they' in the middle of a sentence does not make
>>> it easy to translate intuitively, I would think.  If it's a consideration
>>> (it is for non-English users, at least).
>>>
>>>
>>> Philippe Blouin,
>>> Responsable du développement informatique
>>>
>>> Tél.  : (888) 604-2627
>>> philippe.blouin at inLibro.com
>>> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com
>>> On 04/19/2017 01:16 PM, Jonathan Druart wrote:
>>>
>>> The next step would be to provide a check to our QA tests to make sure
>>> we will not introduce future occurrences.
>>> I am pretty sure they will not be caught manually by QAers.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at 13:56 Eric Phetteplace <ephetteplace at cca.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>
>>>> English has a singular "they". It doesn't suggest androgyny, either,
>>>> from the definitions I've seen. For instance, Oxford English Dictionary:
>>>>
>>>> 2. In anaphoric reference to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined
>>>> gender: he or she.
>>>>
>>>> The first usage example OED provides is from 1375. I don't think
>>>> replacing "he" with "she" addresses the problem, it's still assuming a
>>>> default gender. It's not too much tricker to search code for he/him &
>>>> replace with they/them but that's also just an implementation issue, not a
>>>> policy one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like people are otherwise supportive but I'm not sure what
>>>> the next step should be.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Eric Phetteplace
>>>> Systems Librarian
>>>> California College of the Arts
>>>> libraries.cca.edu | vault.cca.edu
>>>> 510.594.3660 <(510)%20594-3660>
>>>> 2>/dev/null
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Paul A <paul.a at navalmarinearchive.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-04-18 08:25 PM, Eric Phetteplace wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi list,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I opened bug
>>>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>> Before*:*
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Kid growing and become a juvenile, he should pay "
>>>>>
>>>>>> After:
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Kid growing and become a juvenile, they should pay "
>>>>>
>>>>> Political correctness has never been my strong point (although I try
>>>>> to understand it), but I'm proficient in grammatical rigour. [1]
>>>>>
>>>>> "Kid" is a singular noun, "a" is a singular article -- "they" is a
>>>>> plural pronoun. Perhaps replace "they" with "[s]he"? or "Kids growing and
>>>>> becoming juveniles, they should pay"?
>>>>>
>>>>> From a code maintenance p.o.v., it's easier to find and replace 'he'
>>>>> with '[s]he' if really this becomes a priority for Koha.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best -- Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] I am aware of the so-called "singular third person epicene
>>>>> 'they'", but academically object to it -- it often suggests androgyny
>>>>> rather than gender neutrality.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Koha-devel mailing list
>>>>> Koha-devel at lists.koha-community.org
>>>>> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel
>>>>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/
>>>>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/
>>>>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/
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>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>
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