Hi koha-fans, As suggested by viveKVC on irc, i've requested savannah hackers to be added to Koha project as project manager (http://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=104802) it has been done, so we now can continue the move to savannah if we want. Better, the savannah admin already imported CVS for us (including all history !). So, what do you think to move here ? we now just have to move the mailing lists (could be done a little bit later) & announce widely the change. Everybody wanting to hack Koha has to : * create savannah account * request me to be added to koha group on savannah. Joshua & Rachel, as Release Manager & kaitiaki, your opinion ? -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
Hi Paul, What is savannah and why are we moving to it? I had a look through the archives on the Koha-devel list, and saw a little bit of stuff. But my search hadn't found anything on it since August, so this change, to me came "out of the blue". Could you (or someone else feel free :-) do a short explanation of why this is a good idea? If this happens I'd like to do a news release on the website about it. Cheers Russel Paul POULAIN wrote:
Hi koha-fans,
As suggested by viveKVC on irc, i've requested savannah hackers to be added to Koha project as project manager (http://savannah.gnu.org/support/?func=detailitem&item_id=104802) it has been done, so we now can continue the move to savannah if we want.
Better, the savannah admin already imported CVS for us (including all history !). So, what do you think to move here ?
we now just have to move the mailing lists (could be done a little bit later) & announce widely the change.
Everybody wanting to hack Koha has to : * create savannah account * request me to be added to koha group on savannah.
Joshua & Rachel, as Release Manager & kaitiaki, your opinion ?
-- Russel Garlick Operations Manager Katipo Communications Ph: +64 4 934 1285 Fax: +64 4 934 1286 Mob: +64 27 537 1377 Skype: russelgarlick Web http://www.katipo.co.nz
Russel Garlick a écrit : > Hi Paul, > > What is savannah Savannah is an open source repository. It was open by the FSF when sourceforge decided no more to release their code under GPL. It's based on GPL sourceforge code, with some/many improvements. It provides exactly the same services (CVS, mailing lists, bug tracker, ...) > and why are we moving to it? For 2 reasons : - sourceforge has many perf problems (probably due to their succes). Sometimes, the CVS is down, sometimes it's the mailing list. And anytime (or almost, CVS is really slowwwww) I am (small) developper on another savannah project (dolibarr), and I can say I was stunned by the speed the 1st time I updated my CVS copy on savannah ! I thought sourceforge CVS speed was the standard cvs speed, that's not true at all !!! - for philosophical reasons : why do we work on a OSS software using a non-OSS platform ? > But my search hadn't found anything on it since > August, so this change, to me came "out of the blue". <snip> > If this happens I'd like to do a news release on the website about it. In fact, I agree it came "out of the blue" if it means "from nowhere & suddunly". In fact, I met viveVKC on #koha, and, as we were chatting he said he was formerly a hacker on savannah. That reminded me we had a koha project defined here, holded by steve tonnensen that is no more reachable, so we can't do anything with it. I asked viveCKS what we could do. He pointed the link for such questions. I posted a mail/request here. I got an answer. But the answer was highly more that what I expected : the savannah admin did not only add me as koha project manager on Koha, he also migrated the CVS (with all history). That's a strong acceleration to the migration. We have to decide quickly to move (or not to move, but I don't see why we would not !) to avoid having 2 cvs active & unsynch ! HTH -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:10:07AM +0100, Paul POULAIN wrote: > >and why are we moving to it? > For 2 reasons : > - sourceforge has many perf problems (probably due to their succes). > Sometimes, the CVS is down, sometimes it's the mailing list. And anytime > (or almost, CVS is really slowwwww) I am (small) developper on another > savannah project (dolibarr), and I can say I was stunned by the speed > the 1st time I updated my CVS copy on savannah ! I thought sourceforge > CVS speed was the standard cvs speed, that's not true at all !!! > > - for philosophical reasons : why do we work on a OSS software using a > non-OSS platform ? > snip... > That's a strong acceleration to the migration. We have to decide quickly > to move (or not to move, but I don't see why we would not !) to avoid > having 2 cvs active & unsynch ! I think Paul's reasoning is dead on. Why are we developing a GNU project on a non-OSS platform? And we've all experienced annoying lag with sourceforge. Paul, I've signed up at savannah as 'kados'. Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 06:56:15AM -0800, Joshua Ferraro wrote:
I think Paul's reasoning is dead on. Why are we developing a GNU project on a non-OSS platform? Of course I meant a GPL project ;-)
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
When is the Sourceforge Koha CVS being closed for commits in favour of Savannah? As Paul has correctly stated, having two divergent source trees hosted on different websites is problematic. Please be certain that the mailing lists and archives are migrated. Thomas D (I should have a development system working again next week after electrocuting the keyboard controller. I hope not destroy a system by touching the keyboard more than once in five years.) Quoting Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com> :
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On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 06:56:15AM -0800, Joshua Ferraro wrote:
I think Paul's reasoning is dead on. Why are we developing a GNU project on a non-OSS platform? Of course I meant a GPL project ;-)
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
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Just wanted to say that subversion, svn, and cvs are available at https://gna.org/ This site say that hardware is supplied by http://fsffrance.org/ and bandwidth by http://free.fr/. Isn't that closer to where Paul lives. Have you considered a move to svn? I have been exposed to subversion, having almost completed a computer subject at uni in Syndey Australia, just need to pass the exam. Not knowing much about cvs, but it seem svn has a lot of nice feature for large projects and is low on bandwidth. E.g from http://subversion.tigris.org/ - Costs are proportional to change size, not data size. Regards, Simon On 13/11/05, Joshua Ferraro <jmf@liblime.com> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 09, 2005 at 09:10:07AM +0100, Paul POULAIN wrote: > > >and why are we moving to it? > > For 2 reasons : > > - sourceforge has many perf problems (probably due to their succes). > > Sometimes, the CVS is down, sometimes it's the mailing list. And anytime > > (or almost, CVS is really slowwwww) I am (small) developper on another > > savannah project (dolibarr), and I can say I was stunned by the speed > > the 1st time I updated my CVS copy on savannah ! I thought sourceforge > > CVS speed was the standard cvs speed, that's not true at all !!! > > > > - for philosophical reasons : why do we work on a OSS software using a > > non-OSS platform ? > > snip... > > That's a strong acceleration to the migration. We have to decide quickly > > to move (or not to move, but I don't see why we would not !) to avoid > > having 2 cvs active & unsynch ! > > I think Paul's reasoning is dead on. Why are we developing a GNU project > on a non-OSS platform? And we've all experienced annoying lag with > sourceforge. Paul, I've signed up at savannah as 'kados'. > > Cheers, > > -- > Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE > President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support > LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS > jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: > Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download > it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own > Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php > _______________________________________________ > Koha-devel mailing list > Koha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/koha-devel >
Simon Mitchell <jseb.com@gmail.com>
Have you considered a move to svn?
If we are going to change version control, please move koha to a distributed system like arch or darcs. The benefits of svn over cvs are minimal for a fairly mature project, the tools are far larger (like 5 times the size), it still has the single central server point of failure and if we want to upgrade later, there are fewer tools to upgrade from svn than cvs. Finally, it seems not GPL-compatible. My savannah username is "slef". Please may I have write access to the new CVS? I will work on the new installer again in a week or so. Best wishes, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
The reasonable answer I had previously from Paul Poulain about what alternative software version control systems had been considered in the past for Koha is that all such discussions had favoured CVS because it was most widely known. While the relatively small community of active Koha developers could learn to use a better tool than CVS, whatever that better choice might be, it would restrict the size of the development community to those who know or are willing to learn to use the superior software version control system. Koha should impose as few barriers to contribution as possible. Koha needs more contributors not fewer. The only way around this obstacle that I can see is the possibility of a superior version control system that is CVS command compatible or has a wrapper for CVS commands. If you know of such a CVS compatible system, that is better than CVS with a suitable reliable host or distributed hosts supporting the bandwidth consumption then you should identify such a system and the hosting support. Thomas D Quoting MJ Ray <mjr@phonecoop.coop> :
---------------- Beginning of the original message ------------------
Simon Mitchell <jseb.com@gmail.com>
Have you considered a move to svn?
If we are going to change version control, please move koha to a distributed system like arch or darcs.
The benefits of svn over cvs are minimal for a fairly mature project, the tools are far larger (like 5 times the size), it still has the single central server point of failure and if we want to upgrade later, there are fewer tools to upgrade from svn than cvs. Finally, it seems not GPL-compatible.
My savannah username is "slef". Please may I have write access to the new CVS? I will work on the new installer again in a week or so.
Best wishes, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
------------------------------------------------------- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Tame your development challenges with Apache's Geronimo App Server. Download it for free - -and be entered to win a 42" plasma tv or your very own Sony(tm)PSP. Click here to play: http://sourceforge.net/geronimo.php _______________________________________________ Koha-devel mailing list Koha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/koha-devel
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On 11/13/05, Thomas D <koha@alinto.com> wrote:
The only way around this obstacle that I can see is the possibility of a superior version control system that is CVS command compatible or has a wrapper for CVS commands. If you know of such a CVS compatible system, that is better than CVS with a suitable reliable host or distributed hosts supporting the bandwidth consumption then you should identify such a system and the hosting support.
Just to throw this out there, the bzr-ng guys are working on a cvs-mode, with similar commands. Corey
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 07:17:05PM +0100, Thomas D wrote:
The reasonable answer I had previously from Paul Poulain about what alternative software version control systems had been considered in the past for Koha is that all such discussions had favoured CVS because it was most widely known. While the relatively small community of active Koha developers could learn to use a better tool than CVS, whatever that better choice might be, it would restrict the size of the development community to those who know or are willing to learn to use the superior software version control system. Koha should impose as few barriers to contribution as possible. Koha needs more contributors not fewer.
Of course, there are lurkers, like myself, who have been watching this project for years, and are much more comfortable with svn/svk or darcs than CVS. It is much easier to make small tweaks with a distributed system, such as darcs, which is my preference. However, at work we still use CVS, and mostly it is because I haven't decided to push for a different source code management system. I haven't pushed because that genre of software seems still to be in a flare-up of ideas, and want to wait till that flare dies down a little.
The only way around this obstacle that I can see is the possibility of a superior version control system that is CVS command compatible or has a wrapper for CVS commands.
Learning the basic commands generally doesn't take more than a few minutes. Generally all source code management systems do the same kinds of things, and have commands that do similar things. However, working with a distributed SCM is fundamentally different from working with a centralized SCM. That difference takes some getting used to, but can probably be ignored by infrequent committers. -kolibrie
Thomas D <koha@alinto.com>
[...] While the relatively small community of active Koha developers could learn to use a better tool than CVS, whatever that better choice might be, it would restrict the size of the development community to those who know or are willing to learn to use the superior software version control system. [...]
I agree with this conservative approach. It's not at all clear which system will "win" yet, but I agree with another poster that git looks like the best bet at the low level for now. Command compatibility isn't the whole story. There are other levels of compatibility and other problems (like svn's size increase and poor licence) which will need to be addressed. That is why I think git is looking good: there seems to be enough diversity developing that everyone will find something to please them. Being able to interoperate with a "mainline" copy in CVS will probably be a big feature of a winning tool, because CVS is on a *lot* of systems out there. Many of the next-gen' source control authors hate the idea, because CVS has such basic problems, but I think it will be needed... The only thing more basic, in my opinion, is to be able to produce tarballs and patches easily (as tar and patch are even more widespread), so people without any version control can still follow development easily, but koha doesn't do that today. For now, we keep watching and trying out in the background. I agree that mainline should stay in CVS. Best wishes, -- MJ Ray - personal email, see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Work: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ irc.oftc.net/slef Jabber/SIP ask
Hi hackers, http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/koha/ I've added chris (rangi), joshua (kados), henri-damien (hdl), MJ Ray (slef) as developpers on savannah. let's bug me if you want to be added (or ask chris/joshua, they are project admins too). I've also removed steve tonnesen, as he is no more on the project. Steve, if you read us and want to be reintroduced, feel free to ask. I'm not sure i'll have enough time to move mailing lists soon. If someone else want to do it, feel free ;-) about CVS : I will now use only savannah for 2.2 cvs updates. for head, I suggest to decide the same. Note we can't "close" cvs on sourceforce. We just have to double check that noone uses it anymore. + post a link everywhere to explain the move to savannah. note about cvs/arch/subversion... i think we will create enough trouble not to add a tool change ! -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 11:02:18AM +0100, Paul POULAIN wrote:
http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/koha/
about CVS : I will now use only savannah for 2.2 cvs updates. for head, I suggest to decide the same. Yep ... I concur.
Note we can't "close" cvs on sourceforce. We just have to double check that noone uses it anymore. + post a link everywhere to explain the move to savannah. Is there anything we should be doing to prevent developers from committing in both places? ie, turn off write privs for all the general developers?
note about cvs/arch/subversion... i think we will create enough trouble not to add a tool change ! Yep...my impression is that until there is a clear leader in the 'alternative to CVS' revision management systems we should stick with CVS.
Cheers, -- Joshua Ferraro VENDOR SERVICES FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE President, Technology migration, training, maintenance, support LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS jmf@liblime.com |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
Joshua Ferraro a écrit :
Is there anything we should be doing to prevent developers from committing in both places? ie, turn off write privs for all the general developers?
We are stupid : as project admins, we can subscribe/unsubscribe developpers. We just need to remove everybody (except us, of course) !!! Anyone against this ? if no good args against this, i'll remove every developper on friday & we could declare the move official ! (note : official release will have to stay public here. i'll take care of moving 2.2.4 public release to savannah, as well as kohaCD) I'll also add a as-large-as-possible warning everywhere on sourceforge. -- Paul POULAIN Consultant indépendant en logiciels libres responsable francophone de koha (SIGB libre http://www.koha-fr.org)
participants (8)
-
Corey Burger -
Joshua Ferraro -
MJ Ray -
Nathan Gray -
Paul POULAIN -
Russel Garlick -
Simon Mitchell -
Thomas D